Why Can'T The Bom Take Place In Up State Ny?

[doughboy]

I know a lot of you think the BOM is placed in central america. What is the evidence against the BOM being placed in up state NY?

Thanks!

[Kevin Christensen]

I know a lot of you think the BOM is placed in central america. What is the evidence against the BOM being placed in up state NY?

Thanks!

See

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/enap8lyt/A%20Whole%20Bunch%20of%20Reasons%20Why%20Book%20of%20Mormon%20Geography.htm?n=0

And follow with this:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2008-Larry-Poulsen.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[thesometimesaint]

Geography and culture.

[altersteve]

The people who lived in the New York area, their culture, religion, and so on, during Book of Mormon times, were nothing like the people, places, culture, religion, etc. discussed in the Book of Mormon at all.

[Sevenbak]

It does...

...but only the last few years of it.

[Brant Gardner]

There are some simple issues. The Book of Mormon requires that there be an advanced culture to the north of typical Book of Mormon lands. In that area, there had to be a population existing prior to the Nephites that was dependent upon agriculture (the only way to have the large populations indicated). There is no trace of such a culture north of New York. Similarly, splinters from the Nephites go north to a land without trees where the buildings are made of cement (and there is a large population). That cannot be made to fit with a NY geography. You can go far enough in Canada to an area without trees, but very few people lived there and there were never large populations (or buildings of anything that could be called cement).

The NY region did not have the agricultural base to support Book of Mormon populations until perhaps late in the Book of Mormon, but only certainly after its end, as I remember.

I would suppose that if we were to remove the entire issue of the hill Cumorah from the equation, there would never be a reason to look at that area. The only reason is the presence of that named hill, and that is a different question.

[Sevenbak]

There are some simple issues. The Book of Mormon requires that there be an advanced culture to the north of typical Book of Mormon lands. In that area, there had to be a population existing prior to the Nephites that was dependent upon agriculture (the only way to have the large populations indicated). There is no trace of such a culture north of New York. Similarly, splinters from the Nephites go north to a land without trees where the buildings are made of cement (and there is a large population). That cannot be made to fit with a NY geography. You can go far enough in Canada to an area without trees, but very few people lived there and there were never large populations (or buildings of anything that could be called cement).

The NY region did not have the agricultural base to support Book of Mormon populations until perhaps late in the Book of Mormon, but only certainly after its end, as I remember.

I would suppose that if we were to remove the entire issue of the hill Cumorah from the equation, there would never be a reason to look at that area. The only reason is the presence of that named hill, and that is a different question.

I would add that tents are listed first, then cement. The requirement for a large population of cement cities is just not there. In fact, even cement was temporary as they waited for lumber, both growing it and shipping it, to build permanent structures.

Helaman 3:

And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

[Brant Gardner]

I would add that tents are listed first, then cement. The requirement for a large population of cement cities is just not there. In fact, even cement was temporary as they waited for lumber, both growing it and shipping it, to build permanent structures.

OK, accepting that reading, how do you reconcile it with Canada? I assume you are familiar with the heavy forestation of upstate NY as well as lower Canada? Do you know of any historical time (before industrialization) when that part of Canada didn't have trees? Or, do you know of any significant populations that far north that we no longer get trees?

[livy111us]

I would add that tents are listed first, then cement. The requirement for a large population of cement cities is just not there. In fact, even cement was temporary as they waited for lumber, both growing it and shipping it, to build permanent structures.

Helaman 3:

And the people who were in the land northward did dwell intents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

No matter if the NE cultures lived in tents, cities, or RV's, there is no evidence for the population that is required in the BOM. There were not even enough people in that area during BOM times to fight one major battle in the Book of Mormon. http://www.bmaf.org/node/394

I think that is very telling.

I think John Sorenson does a pretty good off the cuff job of putting together a list of reasons why it couldn't have happened up in the NE USA.

. The “promised land” occupied by the Nephites was characterized for many centuries as an area of “civilization.” As indicated by archaeology and related studies, no place in North America in the period of Book of Mormon history contained any cultures at the level of “civilization.”

2. The population of Book of Mormon lands over much of the period of its history totaled from hundreds of thousands up to millions. The areas of North America touted as occupied by Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites cannot be shown from objective evidence to have been anywhere near that level.

3. Many “cities” and even “great cities” are reported by the Nephite record between 1500 BC and AD 400. Not a single such city has been documented in North America in that period.

4. Intensive agriculture is indicated as the economic means of support, according to the record. Agriculture only on a limited scale was employed by inhabitants of North America before AD 400.

5. Multiple kinds of grains were cultivated by the Nephites as their subsistence mainstay.

In the Book of Mormon period, as far as is known, only limited grain crops of corn/maize were cultivated in North America.

6. “Flocks” and “herds” were raised at times by the Nephites and Jaredites (at least). There is absolutely no evidence for any degree of animal husbandry in ancient North America.

7. Many major public buildings, many of them of a religious nature, are referred to in the scripture as characteristic of their settlements. In the Book of Mormon period there is no evidence of any such structures in North America.

8. Major wars were fought among Book of Mormon peoples for well over 1,000 years; they involved over hundreds of thousands of combatants. In North America in the relevant period there is no evidence of warfare on any significant scale.

9. Swords and “cimeters” (scimitars) are particularly referred to as weapons in the Book of Mormon period. Neither in archaeology or art are any such weapons identified in North American cultures.

10. Armor and shields also were in common use according to the record. Evidence for those features is also entirely lacking in North America before AD 400.

11. Large-scale fortifications (of particular types) are described as being used by Book of Mormon peoples, but those types, nor in fact any such large-scale defensive structures, are not known in North America in Book of Mormon times.

12. Roads and highways were described by the Nephite record as being built near the time of Christ. North American archaeology reveals nothing of the sort.

13. “Towers,” obviously tall, bulky structures of earth or stone, were features in some Book of Mormon cities. Such constructions were absent before AD 400 in North America.

14. People of Book of Mormon areas were frequently literate, in fact several scripts are reported. No North American cultures have been shown to have had any system of writing whatsoever.

15. At least the Nephites are said to have possessed “many” books covering many subjects. No ancient North American books at all are evidenced.

16. The Nephites followed several different calendar systems. In North America even a single calendar is only uncertainly known.

17. According to the Nephite record several kinds of metals were worked in the original settlement areas (land of Nephi and Jaredite areas). No true metallurgy is evidenced in North America during the Book of Mormon era.

18. A substantial number of priests, prophets, and other occupational specialists (including “thousands” of idle people in the land of Zarahemla—Alma 60: 22) are mentioned. No more than a mere handful of (“idle”) people occupying specialist roles are in evidence in any ancient culture in North America.

19. There is no mention nor even hint of cold, snow or ice in the Book of Mormon account of its peoples. In the Great Lakes or Prairie regions winter storms are and were so common that it is unthinkable that they would not be a prominent mentioned feature of the climate.

20. It is obvious from the description of the great catastrophe at the crucifixion of the Savior that volcanism must be involved as a natural cause (of at least the “darkness”). In eastern North America that is out of the question; there are no volcanoes there.

21. The river Sidon is a major drainage feature that runs hundreds of miles from south to north from the highlands of the land of Nephi through the “narrow strip of wilderness” past Manti and Zarahemla to the sea. No river in North America even remotely qualifies.

22. The battle of Alma’s Nephite army on the riverbank (Alma 2) has them wade across the river Sidon to battle a combined Lamanite/Amlicite force. The idea of wading across the Mississippi is obviously absurd.

23. The Lehite party in their ship landed on the shore of the (west) sea in the “land of first inheritance” (Alma 22: 28). Any attempt to make that point anywhere but on the Pacific coast of North America requires fantastic twisting of the obvious meaning of the distances and other geographical language.

23. From the borders of the (immediate) land of Nephi to Zarahemla via the waters of Mormon, land of Helam and valley of Alma, took Alma’s party about 21 days. No plausible rate of travel can make that distance more than 250 miles. No suggested “Nephi” to “Zarahemla” distance in North America comes close to that.

24. The land of Zarahemla is said to be “nearly surrounded by water” (i.e., seas). No North American geography qualifies.

25. The land northward supported a population of millions (Ether 15: 2) in late Jaredite times. Not only is it manifestly absurd that any “land northward” around the Great Lakes, given the climatic conditions there, could have supported even one-hundredth as many people, but also the archaeology of that region shows only a tiny fraction of the history’s stated number ever to have dwelt there, let alone in Jaredite times when no one lived there but a few hunting tribes.

26. Book of Mormon references allow that the “narrow pass” or “narrow passage” between the lands northward and southward was within the narrow neck of land and constitute the sole feasible way for large parties to go northward/southward. No North American geographical arrangement comes close to such an arrangement.

27. The hill Ramah/Cumorah of the Book of Mormon lay north of the narrow pass/neck, yet the hill in New York state is not so situated.

28. King Limhi’s exploring party (sent from the land of Nephi to find Zarahemla) traversed the narrow neck/narrow pass without even realizing it, for they returned having been to the final Jaredite battleground (at hill Ramah) but supposed that they had only found the ruins of Zarahemla. Anywhere in North America this is impossible.

29. The kingdom dominated by the Lamanite king (Alma 22: 27) extended from east sea to the west sea. No North American correlation comes close to fitting with those conditions.

30. The hill Cumorah in New York could not plausibly have been a refuge for the 23 survivors of the final battle who were found atop it on the day after the great battle. Had they so much as sneezed their presence would have been detected by the Lamanites.

31. Had New York’s hill been the site of the final battle, the 230,000 Nephite dead (not to mention a large number of Lamanite dead—up to half a million total corpses) would have left behind over half a million weapons. Remains on any such scale would have become obvious long since to archaeologists. In fact no weapons of the right period have been found near the place.

32. The notion that Lehi’s party sailed around Africa and northward through the South and North Atlantic not only has no historical analogs whatever, but given the winds and currents, it was probably impossible in ancient times and has never been duplicated in modern times.

33. From the land of Nephi Mosiah led his party “down [across a mountainous narrow strip of wilderness] into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla” (distant no more than c. 200 miles; see 23 above). In North America, it is impossible to find such a place.

34. West of Zarahemla was the land of Melek (Alma 8: 3-6), “west by the borders of the wilderness.” (That wilderness was adjacent on one side to the land of Zarahemla {Alma 22: 28} and on the other to the west sea {Alma 22: 28}.) No North American area comes close to such an arrangement.

35. The Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from east [sea] unto the west sea, and thus had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south that they could occupy no lands farther north (Alma 22: 33). These statements are meaningless in North America.

36. The Nephites gathered all their people (nearly a quarter of a million of them) to the land of Cumorah (Mormon 6: 3-4) for their final battle. Anyone who has spent a winter in western New York, let alone four of them, must wonder how they survived in their tents and what so many people might have eaten (there is no mention of manna!)

37. Any attempt to put a land northward in, say, Ontario, must face the fact that there is no trace of anything approaching what the Book of Mormon represents as Jaredite society in that area.

This could go on and on and on ….

[Sevenbak]

OK, accepting that reading, how do you reconcile it with Canada? I assume you are familiar with the heavy forestation of upstate NY as well as lower Canada? Do you know of any historical time (before industrialization) when that part of Canada didn't have trees? Or, do you know of any significant populations that far north that we no longer get trees?

The question seems irrelevant to me because 'The Land of Cumorah' was not necessarily the same as the 'Land of Desolation', but North of it. Helaman 3 is clear that first they came to large bodies of water and rivers and THEN spread out, in all directions including the lands left desolate and without timber. Nowhere does the text say the land of Cumorah (which is much broader than just the hill cumorah) It'self was desolate of timber.

[Sevenbak]

No matter if the NE cultures lived in tents, cities, or RV's, there is no evidence for the population that is required in the BOM. There were not even enough people in that area during BOM times to fight one major battle in the Book of Mormon. http://www.bmaf.org/node/394

I think that is very telling.

I disagree. The antiquities of NY from the earliest expeditions onward found tremendous battle remnants, heaps of bones, battlements, fortifications, weapons, etc... much of it covered with old growth timber.

[livy111us]

I disagree. The antiquities of NY from the earliest expeditions onward found tremendous battle remnants, heaps of bones, battlements, fortifications, weapons, etc... much of it covered with old growth timber.

I do not disagree that were were large numbers in that area, but not during the BOM time period, the population came much later after the fall of the Nephite civilization. *During* the time period of The Book of Mormon, people were so scarce that there were few people who lived in small villages scattered over thousands of square miles. There was nothing near the population that the BOM requires there to be. I think this is a strong evidence that this is not the area we should be looking in. The only place that could fit that area (unless someone knows something I don't) is in Mesoamerica.

[Sevenbak]

I do not disagree that were were large numbers in that area, but not during the BOM time period, the population came much later after the fall of the Nephite civilization. *During* the time period of The Book of Mormon, people were so scarce that there were few people who lived in small villages scattered over thousands of square miles. There was nothing near the population that the BOM requires there to be. I think this is a strong evidence that this is not the area we should be looking in. The only place that could fit that area (unless someone knows something I don't) is in Mesoamerica.

I'm not sure what villages, large or small, have to do with anything. The text implies there wouldn't be any such thing at all. These were mobile war camps. I don't understand why people require permanent structures around any definition of Cumorah, be it Meso or a NY setting.

[livy111us]

I'm not sure what villages, large or small, have to do with anything. The text implies there wouldn't be any such thing at all. These were mobile war camps. I don't understand why people require permanent structures around any definition of Cumorah, be it Meso or a NY setting.

I think we are speaking about two different things. I am speaking of population sizes and threw in the small villages to show that the Hopewell didn't have the population for even a large village, let alone a city which The Book of Mormon speaks of with tens of thousands of residents. I don't mean to imply that large armies built permanent structures.

[Brant Gardner]

The question seems irrelevant to me because 'The Land of Cumorah' was not necessarily the same as the 'Land of Desolation', but North of it. Helaman 3 is clear that first they came to large bodies of water and rivers and THEN spread out, in all directions including the lands left desolate and without timber. Nowhere does the text say the land of Cumorah (which is much broader than just the hill cumorah) It'self was desolate of timber.

OK. Let's take the hypothesis that Cumorah is the northernmost area mentioned and the area that is desolate of timber is south of cumorah (and still north of Bountiful). Where do you find those conditions anywhere in the Eastern states? That place grows trees like weeds. I had one volunteer in an area where I dumped grass. Now that I am in New Mexico, we can't grow a tree without loving care.

The area described in Helaman is clearly important enough to warrant some rather specific description. Where would you place it?

[Anijen]

I disagree. The antiquities of NY from the earliest expeditions onward found tremendous battle remnants, heaps of bones, battlements, fortifications, weapons, etc... much of it covered with old growth timber.

Absolutely none of these date back to the BofM.

found tremendous battle remnants,

Where, name them specifically, what sites, what type of remnants? An arrowhead could be a battle remnant but in the Northeast they were used mostly for hunting.

heaps of bones

Define heaps, if you mean up to 20 skeletal remains in earthen mounds then I guess that is "heaps." Not a single mound even the huge one at Cahokia have had heaps buried in them from one set time, over hundreds of years yes, but that still does not qualify as "heaps." Heaps to me would mean one hundred or more. If you mean what colonist saw (and dug up) they were remains of earlier explorers and colonist and many Indians who had died mainly from disease, not your Nephite soldier.

battlements

Which ones, at what site?

fortifications

Again which ones, at what site?

weapons

But we can not say these were used exclusively for battle but we can persuasively argue they were more for hunting. "old growth timber" how old 200 years? Which is old for the person who found them but we are speaking of older much older time. Edited October 10, 2011 by Anijen

[KevinG]

No Tapirs.

[shalamabobbi]

No Tapirs.

or llamas..

[Bob Crockett]

I know a lot of you think the BOM is placed in central america. What is the evidence against the BOM being placed in up state NY?

Thanks!

The Book of Mormon is a doubly-revealed work. The words of Nephi and Alma were largely words revealed by God, and then the book itself in the form of gold plates was revealed by supernatural means to the Prophet Joseph Smith. The book itself invites the spirit of revelation as a means of understanding.

Thus, instead of looking to the uninspired utterings of geographers and anthropologists, we look to men who are tasked with revelation for interpretation and commentary. And each one who has spoken and written on the subject in General Conference or in inspired works, like the Articles of Faith or Answers to Gospel Questions, puts the final battle around Ramah and Cumorah in New York. Now, there have been some who have warned about speculating as to Book of Mormon geography, but when they speak of such things they are not referring to Cumorah.

Edited October 11, 2011 by rcrocket

[Sevenbak]

I think we are speaking about two different things. I am speaking of population sizes and threw in the small villages to show that the Hopewell didn't have the population for even a large village, let alone a city which The Book of Mormon speaks of with tens of thousands of residents. I don't mean to imply that large armies built permanent structures.

Which "city" at the end of the BoM, in the Land of Cumorah speaks of tens of thousands of residents? What exactly are you looking for?

[Sevenbak]

OK. Let's take the hypothesis that Cumorah is the northernmost area mentioned and the area that is desolate of timber is south of cumorah (and still north of Bountiful). Where do you find those conditions anywhere in the Eastern states? That place grows trees like weeds. I had one volunteer in an area where I dumped grass. Now that I am in New Mexico, we can't grow a tree without loving care.

The area described in Helaman is clearly important enough to warrant some rather specific description. Where would you place it?

Firstly, I didn't say nor do I think that the Land of Cumorah was the northernmost area mentioned. Ether describes the Jaredites coming from the north at Ripliancum to Ramah/Cumnorah. As to the land of Desolation, if I knew that, I'd make a map like so many others have done, and sell books. Where do I think it is? South and West of the Land of Cumorah.

[Sevenbak]

Absolutely none of these date back to the BofM.

Where, name them specifically, what sites, what type of remnants? An arrowhead could be a battle remnant but in the Northeast they were used mostly for hunting.

Define heaps, if you mean up to 20 skeletal remains in earthen mounds then I guess that is "heaps." Not a single mound even the huge one at Cahokia have had heaps buried in them from one set time, over hundreds of years yes, but that still does not qualify as "heaps." Heaps to me would mean one hundred or more. If you mean what colonist saw (and dug up) they were remains of earlier explorers and colonist and many Indians who had died mainly from disease, not your Nephite soldier.

Which ones, at what site?

Again which ones, at what site?

But we can not say these were used exclusively for battle but we can persuasively argue they were more for hunting. "old growth timber" how old 200 years? Which is old for the person who found them but we are speaking of older much older time.

Anijen. We've been down this road before. There are numbers accounts, some of which have been discussed here. Here's another I haven't posted before.

http://www.newyorkro...county/ch1.html

The Pioneer History of

Orleans County, NY

Chapter I

The Indians of Western New York

Online Edition by Holice & Deb

CHAPTER I.

THE INDIANS OF WESTERN NEW YORK.

Their Traditionary History -- Ancient Fortifications in Shelby -- their Friendship for the White men in the War of 1812 -- Fishing and Hunting.

A history of the Indians, who inhabited Western new York at the coming of the white men to reside among them, is comparatively unknown. Their own traditionary accounts go back but little more than a century, but the numerous relics and "ruins' and the marks of ancient fortifications, upon which no doubt human labor and skill have been employed, which are found scattered over all this region of country, seem to prove conclusively that here men have lived for many centuries past.

All these traces of former habitants of men are found within the bounds of Orleans County. When they were made, and by whom, seems to be as inexplicable to the Indian of the present day as to his white brother. The commonly entertained opinion, of those who have investigated the subject most, is that this country has been inhabited by a people of higher civilization and more skilled in the arts than those found her and known as the Six nations, who have become long since extinct.

The most considerable of these "ancient fortifications" to be found in Orleans County is thus described in Turner's History;

"About one and one-half miles west of Shelby Center, in Orleans County, is an ancient work. A broad ditch encloses in a form nearly circular, about three acres of land. The ditch is at this day well defined several feet deep. Adjoining the spot on the south is a swamp, about a mile in width, by two in length.--This swamp was once doubtless, if not a lake, an impassable morass. From the interior of the enclosure made by the ditch, there is what appears to have been a passage way on the side next to the swamp. No other breach occurs in the entire circuit of the embankment. There are accumulated, within and near this fort, large piles of small stones of a size convenient to be thrown by the hand or with a sling. Arrow heads of flint are found in or near the enclosure, in great abundance, stones, axes, &c. Trees of four hundred years growth stand upon the embankment, pieces of plates or dishes wrought with skill, presenting ornaments in relief of various patterns. Some skeletons almost entire have been exhumed; many of giant size, not less than seven or eight feet in length. The skulls are large and well developed in the anterior lobe, broad between the ears, and flattened in the coronal region.

Half a mile west of the fort is a sand hill. Here a large number of human skeletons have been exhumed, in a perfect state. Great numbers appear to have been buried in the same grave. Many of the skulls appear to have been broken in with clubs or stones."

The Indians found actually occupying this part of the country when white men began to settle here were the Senecas, a tribe of the Six Nations. They had no village or permanent settlement within Orleans County; but they counted this as part of their territory, and occupied it as their hunting and fishing grounds, and were accustomed to follow these pursuits here.-- Their places of residence were their villages in Genesee and Niagara Counties. These Indians were friendly to the whites, and the pioneer settlers of Orleans County never feared their hostility. In the war of 1812, with Great Britain, they took up arms on the side of the United States, and made themselves useful to us in checking the invasions of the hostile Indians from Canada, who acted with the British.

These Indians had formerly been favorably disposed to the British Government, and it was a source of alarm at the breaking out of the war lest they should be found with their ancient allies. Their great chief, Red Jacket, counseled them to maintain neutrality. This neutral state was construed unfavorably by the pioneers, and rumors of contemplated Indian atrocities were circulated from time to time, until the Senecas had resolved to take up the hatchet with us.

The rapid settlement of the county by white men had the effect to diminish the number of wild game animals, which the Indians had been accustomed to hunt; and fishing in the Oak Orchard and Johnson's Creeks, with seines and nets, soon exterminated the salmon and drove away other kinds of fish that had formerly come up these streams from Lake Ontario in abundance, until the Indians found their occupation worthless and ceased to come here.

In an early day parties of Indians came over from Canada, and wintered in Carlton, for the purpose of hunting. In the spring they would return to Canada. As game became scarce they discontinued their visits.

Indians in families, or singly, frequently traveled about among the dwelling of the pioneers to beg or sell their small wares, or get whiskey. They were generally harmless, and made no trouble. Their claim to the land was long since settled by treaty transferring it to white men, excepting the reservations to which they retired.

The Pioneer History of Orleans County, NY, By Arad Thomas

Edited October 13, 2011 by Sevenbak

[livy111us]

Which "city" at the end of the BoM, in the Land of Cumorah speaks of tens of thousands of residents? What exactly are you looking for?

I never said that the Nephite armies were building cities while battling around Cumorah, not sure where you got that. My argument is that the Hopewell didn't have the population size to survive just one major battle in The Book of Mormon, let alone the numerous battles. They lived in small villages, not cities like the Lehites did.

So, what I am looking for is a culture that has the kind of numbers The Book of Mormon requires. The Hopewell do not even come close to that.

[Sevenbak]

I never said that the Nephite armies were building cities while battling around Cumorah, not sure where you got that. My argument is that the Hopewell didn't have the population size to survive just one major battle in The Book of Mormon, let alone the numerous battles. They lived in small villages, not cities like the Lehites did.

So, what I am looking for is a culture that has the kind of numbers The Book of Mormon requires. The Hopewell do not even come close to that.

I'm referring to what you said here:

"I am speaking of population sizes and threw in the small villages to show that the Hopewell didn't have the population for even a large village, let alone a city which The Book of Mormon speaks of with tens of thousands of residents."

Hardly any of the BoM account deals with the records from the Land Northward, and those references that it does speak of doesn't say large cities at all. It says towns and villages. We know the people in the Land Northward also lived in tents, the text says that. We know they were spread out all over. There is nothing that says they were large masses. Agricultural communities tend to spread out, even by todays standards.

Hopewell culture, northeastern and midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopewell_tradition

[Brant Gardner]

As to the land of Desolation, if I knew that, I'd make a map like so many others have done, and sell books. Where do I think it is? South and West of the Land of Cumorah.

The only problem with that approach is that being able to properly locate other landmarks is essential to being able to locate any landmark. If the New York area works only for the Hill Cumorah, but nothing else, then you have a coincidence, not a viable hypothesis.

Anijen. We've been down this road before. There are numbers accounts, some of which have been discussed here. Here's another I haven't posted before.

The source you cite is from 1871. I would urge you to be very cautious of what kinds of evidence you accept from accounts that old. That is long before any form of scientific archaeology and in a time period where a lot of things were entered in to record that later cannot be demonstrated (and should have been, if the original account were accurate).