Why Can'T The Bom Take Place In Up State Ny?

[Brant Gardner]

Hardly any of the BoM account deals with the records from the Land Northward, and those references that it does speak of doesn't say large cities at all. It says towns and villages.

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

12 And it came to pass that there were many of the people of Ammon, who were Lamanites by birth, did also go forth into this land.

13 And now there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, by many of this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 3:11 - 13)

[livy111us]

I'm referring to what you said here:

"I am speaking of population sizes and threw in the small villages to show that the Hopewell didn't have the population for even a large village, let alone a city which The Book of Mormon speaks of with tens of thousands of residents."

Hardly any of the BoM account deals with the records from the Land Northward, and those references that it does speak of doesn't say large cities at all. It says towns and villages. We know the people in the Land Northward also lived in tents, the text says that. We know they were spread out all over. There is nothing that says they were large masses. Agricultural communities tend to spread out, even by todays standards.

Hopewell culture, northeastern and midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE.

http://en.wikipedia....ewell_tradition

Ah... that is right. You believe in a HGT, correct?

[Anijen]

Sevenbak, yes we have been through this many times and you always fall back on early history books which vaguely support your theory. My often repeated complaints is that almost everything you quote does not date to the time of the people in the Book of Mormon.

1. You quote old books; like your last post which talk about the time the Indian league was formed the oldest date we can get to is approximately 1142, most historians and archaeologist place it mid 15th century when the legendary Onondaga chief Deganawidah founded the Five Nations Iroquois Confederacy. Even if we go with the older time of 1142 AD you are 757 years after the time mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

2. You throw in the many arrowheads or stone tools etc which could range from ten thousand years before the time of the BofM to just last century.

3, You throw in quotes of "massive graves" when there are many historical records of the European colonist recording in their journals of the numerous skeletal remains all from the massive (sorry I couldn't resist) loss of life that happened resulting from the Columbian exchange (disease).

4 And lastly you will then invariably equate all these internet sources of yours with the Hopewell.

Please don't continue to mix many different groups, many different arrowheads, stone tools etc with the time of the BofM. These are many different groups at many different times. Just don't throw them all in as evidences and say I told you so... Some will date to the Book of Mormon but most of what you use does not.

Again when you use sources find those that will give a scholarly estimate of the date. Please don't assume when these old books on New York say "ancient" they mean 600 BC to 385 AD. Most of the time it is a lot more closer to our time than to Mormons time.

---------> Anijen steps off his soapbox

[english gent]

Thus, instead of looking to the uninspired utterings of geographers and anthropologists, we look to men who are tasked with revelation for interpretation and commentary. And each one who has spoken and written on the subject in General Conference or in inspired works, like the Articles of Faith or Answers to Gospel Questions, puts the final battle around Ramah and Cumorah in New York. Now, there have been some who have warned about speculating as to Book of Mormon geography, but when they speak of such things they are not referring to Cumorah.

You seem to be suggesting that 1) there is something wrong with considering the work of scholars with regard to the Book of Mormon and 2) that our Church leaders are telling us in General Conference and various books that the final Nephite/Lamanite battle took place in New York (the implication being that it is through revelation).

With regard to the first point: the Lord has never told us to disregard the work of scholars, whether they are shedding light on Biblical or Book of Mormon archaeology. Infact, quite the opposite is true - we are encouraged in the Church to be educated in various fields and to seek learning etc (the Church actually sponsors archaeological work in Mexico). If we were to discount such things as Book of Mormon archaeology, then we would have to disregard all the good work as well that has been done in Biblical lands.

And on the second point: members (even leaders) may have stated views with regard to New York, but the whereabouts of the final Nephite/Lamanite battle has never been revealed through revelation.

Yes, the Book of Mormon is sacred scripture and it was translated through the 'gift and power of God,' but scholarly research is valuable (and nobody is suggesting that it is in any way inspired).

[Anijen]

we look to men who are tasked with revelation for interpretation and commentary. And each one who has spoken and written on the subject in General Conference or in inspired works

I love and support our church leaders, I have a strong testimony of their mantle and calling. I am not out of the loop of the gospel to find out for myself through secular study or prayer to find out for myself if what they are saying is revelation or their opinion. For example I remember President Benson chastising us as members about pride and there is not a single type of pride that is good. Recently President Uchtdorf has clarified President Benson's words and meaning of pride and both are still men of God, both are Prophets.

So I kind of take it personally when I am told I am an apostate, if I don't hold to everything they utter at conference as doctrine. I believe some of what they say is their own opinion and is what they believe to be true. This does not mean I do not support them, I wholeheartedly do.