Tell Me, Tell Me! Just One Reason Why You Don'T Go To Church??!?

[Montgomery Price]

I've been living with a family of close Mormons for about a year now. Naturally, when my own family comes to visit, everyone hops off to church while I sleep in. The issues surrounding whether I should be "compelled" to attend church were settled long before my family and I separated living arrangements, but add my curious 8 year old sister to the situation... and it makes for some pretty uneasy table talk.

Immediately following the Sunday dinner blessing, the first question my little sister feels compelled to ask is to boldly inquire, "WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH?!"

"Amelie, that's a very serious question. I don't think you're old enough to think about it yet."

"But you didn't go to church even when you were... SIXTEEN!!!"

"Well, maybe when you're my age you can think about it."

She wouldn't tolerate evasion... So, she amusingly cried out, "Just tell me WHY!"

You can imagine the uncomfortable giggling that occurred. In order to avoid any answers "inappropriate" for everyone at the table, one of the parents casually suggested I offer her some silly answer which shuts her up. So, I tried once:

"Well, all the friends I used to hang out with at church are gone now."

"But when I moved to Texas, I didn't have any friends but I STILL WENT TO CHURCH!!!"

Everyone laughed, but she went on...

"God says you HAVE to go to church to be good! Just tell me ONE REASON why you don't go!"

At the moment, I didn't feel I had permission to introduce her to thought that someone may not believe God exists. In fact, I didn't feel I could call attention to anything non-faith promoting, at all. Following the suggestion that someone shouldn't be faithful would undoubtedly pronounce the judgements we've made about the source of our beliefs concerning Mormonism. Clearly, no one at the table wished to offend by making the implication that my beliefs are evil deceptions produced by Satan and I let this happen to me. Nor did I wish to imply that everyone else has fundamentally structured their lives around a different sort of deception. Another suggested, "Amelie, everyone has free-agency. So, he gets to choose if he wants go to Church."

She was obviously unconvinced and immediately repeated, "BUT TELL ME WHY!"

"Umm... why don't you talk to your bishop about it?"

The table nearly cheered in approval, but I was just appeasing them as much as I was attempting to appease my sister. Unfortunately, she still wasn't satisfied.

"But my bishop is in Texas! He doesn't know you!"

"Well, you can tell him all about me and maybe when I go visit you in Texas, I can meet him."

"Fine. BUT TELL ME, TELL ME! Just ONE reason why you don't go to church??!?"

She wouldn't give up. So, I decided this would be the least problematic way to quite her...

"Amelie, do you know who Muslims are?"

"No..."

"Yes, you do. You've seen the girls and ladies who wear the scarves over their heads, even when it's hot outside, haven't you?"

She still looked confused. "Oh... You mean the Chinese people?"

Laughter, again, returning to quiet anticipation of my response.

"Heh, no. Umm... OK, do you know what a religion is?"

"No..."

"You know what Mormons are, right?"

"Yes, we're Mormons."

"Well, Mormons are part of a religion, and there are lots of different churches for lots different religions. You go to the Mormon church, but you don't go to all the other churches, like the Muslim church. You don't go with Muslims to other churches just like I don't go to church with you."

The thought hadn't occurred to her, and she finally quieted.

I've been away from my family for about a year now, and the separation has, for lack of a better word, stirred our relationship. It's certainly improved, but the differences rooted in where we place our values and their implications are magnified by the distance between us. Separation that changes the priorities of our relationship. Dinner troubled me in this way, but not as much as watching my little sister become indoctrinated.

Why doesn't she know what a "religion" is and why doesn't she understand what other people are doing when they go to another church?

Why isn't she even aware that there are other possible forms of belief?

Why is she ignorant of the reasons a non-member would give for not going to the Mormon church, instead of just the interpretations of the church, if they give any?

We consider the complex ideas at the core of these sorts of questions too serious for a child; their mind incapable of the proper evaluation often discussed on forums such as this. We find it acceptable to guide their exploitable minds in the direction we personally see as correct on these matters, but we leave the critical elements out. Those elements we know are so important for the critical examination every belief deserves.

Yet she is also taught, and therefore compelled, to defend these beliefs?

Are we not concerned about the studied and established effect of cognitive dissonance this creates? Dissonance which may cripple a child's ability to evaluate their beliefs when they get older? Beliefs which they didn't choose to be indoctrinated with? How do we justify this, as it occurs so commonly?

Is this the proper way to deal with the problem we can't even settle amongst ourselves?

Edited August 1, 2011 by Montgomery Price

[bluebell]

So, you didn't feel that it would be appropriate just to tell her that you didn't believe you needed to go to church, so you don't go?

(making sure i'm understanding what you are saying).

We have quite a few nonmembers/less active in our family and my kids (6 and 9) have often asked why so and so doesn' go to church. We just tell them it's because they don't want to or because they believe differently than we do but that it doesn't make them bad people, etc. etc.

That seems to satisfy them while letting them know that 1) a person doesn't have to believe exactly like they do to be a good person and 2) that they don't need other people to agree with their beliefs to validate them.

It can be a tricky subject, but with our family dynamics, it's never been one we could shy away from or felt the need to shy away from. I agree though, that things do need to stay 'age appropriate'-kids shouldn't be forced into adult conflicts and i applaud you for trying to keep the peace at the family table. I'm sure it's not an easy thing to do.

[Ahab]

I've been living with a family of close Mormons for about a year now. Naturally, when my own family comes to visit, everyone hops off to church while I sleep in. The issues surrounding whether I should be "compelled" to attend church were settled long before my family and I separated living arrangements, but add my curious 8 year old sister to the situation... and it makes for some pretty uneasy table talk.

Immediately following the Sunday dinner blessing, the first question my little sister feels compelled to ask is to boldly inquire, "WHY DON'T YOU GO TO CHURCH?!"

"Amelie, that's a very serious question. I don't think you're old enough to think about it yet."

"But you didn't go to church even when you were... SIXTEEN!!!"

"Well, maybe when you're my age you can think about it."

She wouldn't tolerate evasion... So, she amusingly cried out, "Just tell me WHY!"

You can imagine the uncomfortable giggling that occurred. In order to avoid any answers "inappropriate" for everyone at the table, one of the parents casually suggested I offer her some silly answer which shuts her up. So, I tried once:

"Well, all the friends I used to hang out with at church are gone now."

"But when I moved to Texas, I didn't have any friends but I STILL WENT TO CHURCH!!!"

Everyone laughed, but she went on...

"God says you HAVE to go to church to be good! Just tell me ONE REASON why you don't go!"

At the moment, I didn't feel I had permission to introduce her to thought that someone may not believe God exists. In fact, I didn't feel I could call attention to anything non-faith promoting, at all. Following the suggestion that someone shouldn't be faithful would undoubtedly pronounce the judgements we've made about the source of our beliefs concerning Mormonism. Clearly, no one at the table wished to offend by making the implication that my beliefs are evil deceptions produced by Satan and I let this happen to me. Nor did I wish to imply that everyone else has fundamentally structured their lives around a different sort of deception. Another suggested, "Amelie, everyone has free-agency. So, he gets to choose if he wants go to Church."

She was obviously unconvinced and immediately repeated, "BUT TELL ME WHY!"

"Umm... why don't you talk to your bishop about it?"

The table nearly cheered in approval, but I was just appeasing them as much as I was attempting to appease my sister. Unfortunately, she still wasn't satisfied.

"But my bishop is in Texas! He doesn't know you!"

"Well, you can tell him all about me and maybe when I go visit you in Texas, I can meet him."

"Fine. BUT TELL ME, TELL ME! Just ONE reason why you don't go to church??!?"

She wouldn't give up. So, I decided this would be the least problematic way to quite her...

"Amelie, do you know who Muslims are?"

"No..."

"Yes, you do. You've seen the girls and ladies who wear the scarves over their heads, even when it's hot outside, haven't you?"

She still looked confused. "Oh... You mean the Chinese people?"

Laughter, again, returning to quiet anticipation of my response.

"Heh, no. Umm... OK, do you know what a religion is?"

"No..."

"You know what Mormons are, right?"

"Yes, we're Mormons."

"Well, Mormons are part of a religion, and there are lots of different churches for lots different religions. You go to the Mormon church, but you don't go to all the other churches, like the Muslim church. You don't go with Muslims to other churches just like I don't go to church with you."

The thought hadn't occurred to her, and she finally quieted.

I've been away from my family for about a year now, and the separation has, for lack of a better word, stirred our relationship. It's certainly improved, but the differences rooted in where we place our values and their implications are magnified by the distance between us. Separation that changes the priorities of our relationship. Dinner troubled me in this way, but not as much as watching my little sister become indoctrinated.

Why doesn't she know what a "religion" is and why doesn't she understand what other people are doing when they go to another church?

Why isn't she even aware that there are other possible forms of belief?

Why is she ignorant of the reasons a non-member would give for not going to the Mormon church, instead of just the interpretations of the church, if they give any?

We consider the complex ideas at the core of these sorts of questions too serious for a child; their mind incapable of the proper evaluation often discussed on forums such as this. We find it acceptable to guide their exploitable minds in the direction we personally see as correct on these matters, but we leave the critical elements out. Those elements we know are so important for the critical examination every belief deserves.

Yet she is also taught, and therefore compelled, to defend these beliefs?

Are we not concerned about the studied and established effect of cognitive dissonance this creates? Dissonance which may cripple a child's ability to evaluate their beliefs when they get older? Beliefs which they didn't choose to be indoctrinated with? How do we justify this, as it occurs so commonly?

Is this the proper way to deal with the problem we can't even settle amongst ourselves?

I'm sure she would have understood had you simply told her why you don't go to [insert any particular] church.

I'm guessing she hadn't yet thought of you as an "outsider" and simply thought of you as an "inactive" member of the same church she is in, and she was wondering why you were "inactive".

With the answer you gave her I'm thinking she now wonders which church you are now a member of, since to her you no longer appear to be a "Mormon".

My suggestion: Go ahead and have serious talks about it all with her at the dinner table if the situation ever comes up again. She'll have the advantage of having her parents and others around her who can help her to understand what she doesn't understand, yet, and it would be the best way for her to learn more about you and your reasons for no longer being what she considers to be a "Mormon".

[Montgomery Price]

So, you didn't feel that it would be appropriate just to tell her that you didn't believe you needed to go to church, so you don't go?

(making sure i'm understanding what you are saying).

It was clear that she was already aware I didn't believe I needed to go. She didn't realize the significance of what she was pressing me for. She was asking for the reasons not to believe in God or go to the Mormon church, but just thought she was searching for something else. I don't know what she suspected. My best guess is maybe she thought I was just being a naughty kid and wanted to call me out, but was fueled by her curious questions to begin with.

[Storm Rider]

I don't understand the dodge you did. There is no need for a dissertation; just tell her the truth. I don't go to chuch because I don't believe it is necessary for me. Please pass me the potatoes.

Please, whatever you do, do not go on about "cognitive dissonance"; this term always gives me the urge to retch. You don't need to pity your sister for being brainwashed by those terrible Mormons. She may surprise you to grow up and be a thinking, rational adult....and still believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Hells Bells, she may actually remain a faithful LDS.

I have always believed that we create our own h***; you have certainly created yours. The way out is to just be truthful and appropriate when talking with children.

[Montgomery Price]

I'm sure she would have understood had you simply told her why you don't go to [insert any particular] church.

Not really. I'd be, in effect, claiming they all structure their lives around a lie. Which would certainly provoke the most inappropriate and offensive questions.

I'm guessing she hadn't yet thought of you as an "outsider" and simply thought of you as an "inactive" member of the same church she is in, and she was wondering why you were "inactive".

With the answer you gave her I'm thinking she now wonders which church you are now a member of, since to her you no longer appear to be a "Mormon".

Yes, this makes sense. She actually asked me which church I go to and I told her I didn't want to upset our mother and to not ask me any more questions until she checked with her. She's catching on, but my mom just thinks this is her searching for excuses to not go to church. "Why do I have to go if he doesn't?!?"

My suggestion: Go ahead and have serious talks about it all with her at the dinner table if the situation ever comes up again. She'll have the advantage of having her parents and others around her who can help her to understand what she doesn't understand, yet, and it would be the best way for her to learn more about you and your reasons for no longer being what she considers to be a "Mormon".

I don't feel I can because I'm not sure the parents involved prefer their families exposed to anything not faith-promoting at this time. I'm more certain that they don't.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't feel I can because I'm not sure the parents involved prefer their families exposed to anything not faith-promoting at this time. I'm more certain that they don't.

You should still be frank and open. If the parents only want "faith promoting" stories then they will tell here to stop asking questions. Oh well.

[Montgomery Price]

I don't understand the dodge you did. There is no need for a dissertation; just tell her the truth. I don't go to chuch because I don't believe it is necessary for me. Please pass me the potatoes.

Please, whatever you do, do not go on about "cognitive dissonance"; this term always gives me the urge to retch. You don't need to pity your sister for being brainwashed by those terrible Mormons. She may surprise you to grow up and be a thinking, rational adult....and still believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Hells Bells, she may actually remain a faithful LDS.

I have always believed that we create our own h***; you have certainly created yours. The way out is to just be truthful and appropriate when talking with children.

"I don't go to chuch because I don't believe it is necessary for me." would have provoked another of her hyper-curious responses which would have led to the very uncomfortable topics I don't think my family prefers I expose her to. This doesn't tell her what she's looking for. Are you saying I should instruct her in what my parents believe to be evil deceptions created by Satan? I don't know which is the greater sacrifice. It's not a "I happen to like vanilla, you like chocolate" sort of situation... it's "nearly everything you think about this thing called 'ice cream' is wrong."

[wenglund]

Why not tell Amelie that the reason you don't go to church is because you believe you have found better ways to strive towards a fullness of joy and love and to become your very best self?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 1, 2011 by wenglund

[Storm Rider]

"I don't go to chuch because I don't believe it is necessary for me." would have provoked another of her hyper-curious responses which would have led to the very uncomfortable topics I don't think my family prefers I expose her to. This doesn't tell her what she's looking for. Are you saying I should instruct her in what my parents believe to be evil deceptions created by Satan? I don't know which is the greater sacrifice. It's not a "I happen to like vanilla, you like chocolate" sort of situation... it's "nearly everything you think about this thing called 'ice cream' is wrong."

No, I think you need to keep it simple; appropriate for an 8-year old. I understand your frame of mind; but as my grandmother used to say, there is no need to pee in each other's cup of tea. Your family would probably say everything you think is completely wrong also; let it rest. There is no argument to win between you and your folks.

How about, I don't go to church because I am no longer a Latter-day Saint. I may go sometime in the future, but not now. We can talk about it more, but you will have to learn to drive a car first. I still think you need to eat more potatoes.

Of course there is always the alternative, "I don't go to church because I worship Satan and I still have to eat a small baby today". The beets are a lovely color today, please pass them. That will stop all the questions, particularly if you let the beet juice drip out the side of your mouth.

[elguanteloko]

Seneca would have given a great answer:

"One hand washes the other."

[ldsfaqs]

No ones ability to judge is "crippled" when they get older. Everyone has the agency to learn and embrace whatever they wish. We ALL reach a stage or stages in life in which we choose who and what we want to be based on what we see and know around us.

There are mormons who might have chosen something else, there might be atheists who would actually choose mormonism if they new about it.

It all works out in the end. Only in society's in which things of the intellect are several restricted and limited should you have concern for anyone's cognitive ability and "choice". The rest of us, get over it. We aren't blind sheep as the atheist thinks.

The atheist obsession with calling anyone and everyone that has any "beliefs" as having some kind of "cognitive dissonance" is in itself a mental disorder.

Edited August 1, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[Ahab]

Not really. I'd be, in effect, claiming they all structure their lives around a lie.

And I"m sure they would take that as your own personal perspective while sharing their own with you.

Which would certainly provoke the most inappropriate and offensive questions.

Like: "Why do you believe that?"

I imagine people would simply back up their beliefs with reasons for why they believe what they believe, thus making it an interesting discussion.

Yes, this makes sense. She actually asked me which church I go to and I told her I didn't want to upset our mother and to not ask me any more questions until she checked with her. She's catching on, but my mom just thinks this is her searching for excuses to not go to church. "Why do I have to go if he doesn't?!?"

I think it's more likely that your little sister is just trying to understand you a little better, and I don't see any reason why it would cause problems if she simply understood you and your reasons for believing what you believe. I imagine her coming back with some fairly interesting responses, based on how I picture her personality from your description.

I don't feel I can because I'm not sure the parents involved prefer their families exposed to anything not faith-promoting at this time. I'm more certain that they don't.

Your sister is probably already exposed to people who don't agree with her "Mormon" beliefs, at school and what not, and I think it would be wise to help her understand as much as possible about these kinds of issues. Just ask them if they would mind if you had those types of discussions.

At my house we talked about all kinds of issues when I grew up, especially in matters as important as "religion".

[Ahab]

"I don't go to chuch because I don't believe it is necessary for me." would have provoked another of her hyper-curious responses which would have led to the very uncomfortable topics I don't think my family prefers I expose her to. This doesn't tell her what she's looking for. Are you saying I should instruct her in what my parents believe to be evil deceptions created by Satan? I don't know which is the greater sacrifice. It's not a "I happen to like vanilla, you like chocolate" sort of situation... it's "nearly everything you think about this thing called 'ice cream' is wrong."

To someone else you would say that to it would come out more like: "He believes nearly everything I think about this thing called 'ice cream' is wrong".

I'll bet even your little sister wouldn't hae a problem telling you how wrong you are about ice cream, as she told you how much she liked it.

Your personal perspective is exactly that.... yours... and you are entitled to that it as much as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

[Montgomery Price]

Sigh. I didn't really mean for this to be a "social hall" discussion. I think the indoctrination angle is a bit more interesting than my family matters. What I intended, anyways. But, oh well.

[bluebell]

Sigh. I didn't really mean for this to be a "social hall" discussion. I think the indoctrination angle is a bit more interesting than my family matters. What I intended, anyways. But, oh well.

Are you worried that your sister is being indoctrinated by your parents? Did they indoctrinate (raise) you the same way as they are raising her? If they are, and you managed to overcome the indoctrination, then does that give you hope that she will as well?

How are you going to raise your own children to insure that you don't indoctrinate them with your beliefs?

(if the indoctrination angle is the one you want to pursue, then let's give it a try and see if it can stay cordial).

[Ahab]

Sigh. I didn't really mean for this to be a "social hall" discussion. I think the indoctrination angle is a bit more interesting than my family matters. What I intended, anyways. But, oh well.

If by "indoctrination" you're talking about how you and your little sister's parents try to teach her what is true, to the best of their knowledge and ability, that's what God has commanded every parent to do... and even if it wasn't, everybody basically does that anyway unless they don't bother to teach anything or they're intentionally trying to teach something they know is not true.

... and fortunately, good LDS parents will continue to teach their children the truth whether or not you like it or agree with it, too.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Ahab