"As He Thinketh In His Heart, So Is He"

[HeatherAnn]

I believe that the essence of sin is incorrect thoughts, so repentance is correcting thinking.

Yes, sometimes we act on thoughts & sometimes we don't, yet either way, those thoughts do have influence in how we feel, both mentally & physically.

Proberbs 23:7 reads, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he."

One of my favorite scriptures is in Luke 17, "The kingom of God is within you."

I think bringing out the goodness in our hearts, or the kingdom of God within, starts with exploring one's thinking, not in a shameful way, but in an objective way at first, & then compassionately figuring out how to correct thinking patterns, to be happier & live more productively.

So... I thought it might be helpful to post a list of common thinking distortions.

Which do you struggle with? Which have you overcome?

1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative

2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix)

3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening

4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts

5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster

6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing

7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control)

8. Fallacy of Fairness - Constantly looking for fairness & being disappointed (because life often isn't fair)

9. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain

10. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept

11. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't)

12. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true)

13. Global Labeling - Generalizing

14. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct

15. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life

[Doug the Hutt]

Hi HeatherAnn,

I like that list and I think it's helpful to recognize those thought-faux-paus in our behavior.

I think bringing out the goodness in our hearts, or the kingdom of God within, starts with exploring one's thinking, not in a shameful way, but in an objective way at first, & then compassionately figuring out how to correct thinking patterns, to be happier & live more productively.

+1

Which do you struggle with? Which have you overcome?

I struggle with all of them, all the time. I know, I'm terrible. Sometimes I have periods where I'm doing okay then it all goes to the place-of-toothpicks -- it's kind of like Kimball's ladder where once you've re-sinned a sin all the other sins return and drop you back to step #1 on the long ladder to repentance.

I actually think a person should not be making LDS religious commitments like baptism, testimony-bearing, missions, etc. unless they have overcome the thinking distortions you've mentioned because there's a tendency to constantly call into question the validity of one's commitments knowing how I have:

* filtered out important details that would have affected my testimony

* polarized the two-Churches-only mentality where my church is right and every other one is an abomination which draws near to Jesus with the lips but their hearts are far from him

* overgeneralized the validity of my LDS faith and the existence of God because once I prayed that He would help me get out of debt and that week I made like $700 extra dollars (back in the early 90's when 700 Washingtons actually could do something) and that clearly meant that God knew me personally and really wants to bless me spiritually as well as temporally

* jumped into concluding that the Church was true and got baptized at 8 years old without ever really studying the history or analyzing the scriptures or knowing enough to know that I didn't even know

* catastrophized the invalidity of my seminary, institute, mission, temple marriage, teaching and minor leadership callings as well as all those Sundays spent in boring meetings just because I think The Prophet might have conjured the Book of Mormon as a fan-fiction with good intentions, made up the Book of Abraham and don't buy one word of Mr. Schryver's (Skry-ver, similar to Grant Palmer's describing of Joseph's "scrying") FAIR presentation last year (though I admit he's remarkably brilliant in coming up with such a sophisticated explanation. He's very good with arguing.)

* took things personally when someone told me that Joseph was a Mason (at the time I didn't know anything about it and was offended at the idea) or that he married other men's wives (my grandmother was among them)(there I go again, making it personal, as if my ancestor's events are mine or affect me)

* believed that social pressure to not conform with LDS standards was too much, that no good girl (who wouldn't constantly stab me in the back while telling me how much she loved me to my face) would want to marry someone like me unless I was a standout & delightsome priesthood holder who would take her to the temple and who knew the scriptures inside out and went on a mission to faraway lands and followed the Prophet, and I'd never be happy without the Gospel in my life.

* looked for a fair way to explain to the sisters of the Church that women's power was to bear children and men's power was to run the Church and the family, and how the woman should stay in the home and not go out into the workplace (recent re-reading of Mir-o-Forg. triggered this one)

* blamed the Church leaders for the mental pain from the devistation of my testimony for them presenting a nicely-correlated history complete with pictures of The Prophet reading the Gold Plates in full view of Oliver and Lehites dressed up as the American Indian, minus a few non-discussed details before I got baptized and using that covenant to pressure me for decades into doing things for them, give them money, commit to consecratory laws, etc. that I might not have ever made had I known what I know today, though all those minor-perceived problems might be smoothed out nicely tomorrow and all will be well.

* made up rules like no recreation on Sunday even with your family, caffeine is against the WoW, you shouldn't work on Sunday and if you do you should get a different job even if it pays less, etc.

* believed that my emotions of peace and tranquility while praying to God in my bedroom might have been because I wasn't being chased by lions at the time and not necessarily because the Holy Ghost was inside my body

* believed that by changing others from secular-or-belonging-to-an-apostate-religion and into the Gospel that I would feel better about myself, as if I'd ever say something like "it's so rewarding when people come around to God's way of thinking". The reality is that a person with a well developed sense of self esteem would be happy regardless of their Church activity, and a person with an abused sense of self esteem will always struggle. My guess is that a person with good self esteem has the best chance of succeeding in life and probably has the best chance of managing their testimony when tough times come or when foundation-changing information comes their way.

* generalized that people who leave the Church do so because they just want to sin (sleep around, drink, use drugs, use coffee and tea, smoke, etc.)

* constantly came into internet boards and put my religious ideas under the microscope to prove that my distrust is validated or accept that the prophets can still be prophets despite their weaknesses (women, money, power, fame, etc.)

* believed that God knows my heart and will reward me for honestly going forward alone, despite chastisement from family and friends, to look for my true beliefs.

You've given me much to think about. Thanks for the interesting thread.

[HeatherAnn]

Hi HeatherAnn,

I like that list and I think it's helpful to recognize those thought-faux-paus in our behavior.

+1

I struggle with all of them, all the time. I know, I'm terrible. Sometimes I have periods where I'm doing okay then it all goes to the place-of-toothpicks -- it's kind of like Kimball's ladder where once you've re-sinned a sin all the other sins return and drop you back to step #1 on the long ladder to repentance.

I actually think a person should not be making LDS religious commitments like baptism, testimony-bearing, missions, etc. unless they have overcome the thinking distortions you've mentioned because there's a tendency to constantly call into question the validity of one's commitments knowing how I have:

Hi Doug,

Thanks for sharing thoughts & feelings.You remind me of my old rabbit, who liked to "nom nom nom" on carrots in our garden.

My life would be so different without the lds church. I would have married someone different, may have not been as suicidal because I wasn't matching up to unrealistic standards & I wouldn't live where I do now with most neighbors who only associate with you if your ancestors settled this area. Without the church, I also wouldn't have had a reality check when 2 missionaries came knocking & the children of the drug-dealers mistook them for police so we flushed the drugs down the toilet. Without the church, I'd probably have slept around & got pregnant as a teenager, as many of my friends. Without the church, I wouldn't have my beautiful children & many good frienids.

* filtered out important details that would have affected my testimony

* polarized the two-Churches-only mentality where my church is right and every other one is an abomination which draws near to Jesus with the lips but their hearts are far from him

Yeah, the 11th article of faith could be better applied, yet I hear much more Mormon-bashing than Mormons bashing.

* overgeneralized the validity of my LDS faith and the existence of God because once I prayed that He would help me get out of debt and that week I made like $700 extra dollars (back in the early 90's when 700 Washingtons actually could do something) and that clearly meant that God knew me personally and really wants to bless me spiritually as well as temporally

I see your point... there's too much unfairness to claim God honors prayers requests to those he loves.

Sometimes we fail to realize all of the other influences involved in spirituality, besides what we want.

* jumped into concluding that the Church was true and got baptized at 8 years old without ever really studying the history or analyzing the scriptures or knowing enough to know that I didn't even know

I understand what you mean... but I'd more likely apply it to adults. Adults need to & have the ability to realize what they don't know & study it out. Children are more naive. And I think baptism is a beautiful symbolic ceremony to help children remember to choose the right, & especially that they are loved, by those in body & spirit.

* catastrophized the invalidity of my seminary, institute, mission, temple marriage, teaching and minor leadership callings as well as all those Sundays spent in boring meetings just because I think The Prophet might have conjured the Book of Mormon as a fan-fiction with good intentions, made up the Book of Abraham and don't buy one word of Mr. Schryver's (Skry-ver, similar to Grant Palmer's describing of Joseph's "scrying") FAIR presentation last year (though I admit he's remarkably brilliant in coming up with such a sophisticated explanation. He's very good with arguing.)

You lost me here... but I'll guess... you feel you've been deceived? If someone believes what they say, even if it's not true from another perspective, they're not purposefully deceiving.

Spiritually, there are so many perspectives... like history - you ask one person what happend just last week & will get a totally different story from someone at the same event.

Is one more true than the other? Any belief, whether true or not, has true influence.

* took things personally when someone told me that Joseph was a Mason (at the time I didn't know anything about it and was offended at the idea) or that he married other men's wives (my grandmother was among them)(there I go again, making it personal, as if my ancestor's events are mine or affect me)

How many guys (including "honorable" guys in the church) look at porn? A lot! Those women they're looking at are often the wives of other men.

I'm not justifying what Joseph Smith did - just trying to put it in perspective.

* believed that social pressure to not conform with LDS standards was too much, that no good girl (who wouldn't constantly stab me in the back while telling me how much she loved me to my face) would want to marry someone like me unless I was a standout & delightsome priesthood holder who would take her to the temple and who knew the scriptures inside out and went on a mission to faraway lands and followed the Prophet, and I'd never be happy without the Gospel in my life.

I'm guessing about your feelings a lot, here, so feel free to (respectfully) correct me if I'm wrong...

Somehow you aren't happy with your marriage?

Maybe your marriage was too dependent on religious beliefs, so when your beliefs shifted, your marriage was hurt.

* looked for a fair way to explain to the sisters of the Church that women's power was to bear children and men's power was to run the Church and the family, and how the woman should stay in the home and not go out into the workplace (recent re-reading of Mir-o-Forg. triggered this one)

Yeah, we women are lucky to spend time with the loves of our lives - spirited, energetic, pure & beautiful angels - our children.

Men think they are the head of things, but women are the necks.

Seriously, there is some prejudice against women - maybe it's partly because men are intimidated by us... lol... or just like Heavenly Mother is overlooked, women are.

* blamed the Church leaders for the mental pain from the devistation of my testimony for them presenting a nicely-correlated history complete with pictures of The Prophet reading the Gold Plates in full view of Oliver and Lehites dressed up as the American Indian, minus a few non-discussed details before I got baptized and using that covenant to pressure me for decades into doing things for them, give them money, commit to consecratory laws, etc. that I might not have ever made had I known what I know today, though all those minor-perceived problems might be smoothed out nicely tomorrow and all will be well.

Blaming doesn't help anyone & hurts the one blaming. Church leaders were doing what they thought was right & loving (best). So, let's say it's all a big fictional story... Who doesn't like fiction? We all do! Movies, TV, video games, religion, internet, alcohol, drugs - they're all illusional escapes. Some healthier than others.

*made up rules like no recreation on Sunday even with your family, caffeine is against the WoW, you shouldn't work on Sunday and if you do you should get a different job even if it pays less, etc.

Lifting weights - to get the most benefit, you need to give your muscles a break, so you alternate days & muscle sets. Sunday's a good chance to take a break, but I agree, we don't need to be too picky about it. Caffeine seems like a small dose of cocaine - or meth... & have you seen those who get addicted to that? Some caffeine's fine - "Feel free to go anywhere outside the line I drew around my supply of chocolate."

* believed that my emotions of peace and tranquility while praying to God in my bedroom might have been because I wasn't being chased by lions at the time and not necessarily because the Holy Ghost was inside my body

Significant to realize spiritual feelings are feelings & aren't usually specificly defined, until we intellectually attach meaning to them.

* believed that by changing others from secular-or-belonging-to-an-apostate-religion and into the Gospel that I would feel better about myself, as if I'd ever say something like "it's so rewarding when people come around to God's way of thinking". The reality is that a person with a well developed sense of self esteem would be happy regardless of their Church activity, and a person with an abused sense of self esteem will always struggle. My guess is that a person with good self esteem has the best chance of succeeding in life and probably has the best chance of managing their testimony when tough times come or when foundation-changing information comes their way.

Good point that a healthy self esteem would do well, no matter what & an unheathy self-esteem would be miserable, no matter what.

I considered going on a mission & decided to visit different churches, to get a better idea. I also went on splits. One time, this older, wise woman gave a beautiful testimony, yet the missionary ignored it to just go on with the prescribed lesson. Everyone is ignorant & intelligent on their own subjects.

* generalized that people who leave the Church do so because they just want to sin (sleep around, drink, use drugs, use coffee and tea, smoke, etc.)

Sometimes, people leave the church because they get offended, simply don't believe it anymore & see no use in pretending.

Yet, some hang in there & still go - not because they believe everything, but because they value friendships & a sense of community & commodory.

* constantly came into internet boards and put my religious ideas under the microscope to prove that my distrust is validated or accept that the prophets can still be prophets despite their weaknesses (women, money, power, fame, etc.)

I'm not sure if I understand you here... You feel that your religious ideas have been picked apart?

You believe that prophets are not social leaders if they sleep with women, have power & fame? So, you don't believe in most politicians? ha j/k

* believed that God knows my heart and will reward me for honestly going forward alone, despite chastisement from family and friends, to look for my true beliefs.

You've given me much to think about. Thanks for the interesting thread.

You're not alone. Or if you are, there are others like me, being alone like you.

[BCSpace]

I actually think a person should not be making LDS religious commitments like baptism, testimony-bearing, missions, etc. unless they have overcome the thinking distortions you've mentioned

Church would always be empty.

because there's a tendency to constantly call into question the validity of one's commitments knowing how I have:

Struggling with one's faith is part of the plan. Can't be refined without it.

[Ariarates]

A common fallacy is underestimating the role of chance in our lives. Many things just happen for no reason. Another way of looking at your no. 8 maybe.

Another one that I often see in converts who've been members for a while is that they view their pre-baptismal self in a much more negative light than reality warrants. Most people live decent lives - why is our church full of people who think they would have become the worst of the worst had it not been for the missionaries? We don't have enough missionaries to keep civilization afloat if that were true.

OK, one more: when we think about a decision, we tend to look for things that confirm our decision rather than things that challenge it. Which is why we make so many bad decisions (well, I know I do).

Fun thread!

[CV75]

I believe that the essence of sin is incorrect thoughts, so repentance is correcting thinking.

Yes, sometimes we act on thoughts & sometimes we don't, yet either way, those thoughts do have influence in how we feel, both mentally & physically.

Proberbs 23:7 reads, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he."

One of my favorite scriptures is in Luke 17, "The kingom of God is within you."

I think bringing out the goodness in our hearts, or the kingdom of God within, starts with exploring one's thinking, not in a shameful way, but in an objective way at first, & then compassionately figuring out how to correct thinking patterns, to be happier & live more productively.

So... I thought it might be helpful to post a list of common thinking distortions.

Which do you struggle with? Which have you overcome?

1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative

2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix)

3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening

4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts

5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster

6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing

7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control)

8. Fallacy of Fairness - Constantly looking for fairness & being disappointed (because life often isn't fair)

9. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain

10. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept

11. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't)

12. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true)

13. Global Labeling - Generalizing

14. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct

15. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life

I like to mix and match all of these on different days. Like a psychic shampoo using Ben and Jerry’s combo of their most exotic flavors!

[Doctor Ninja]

HeatherAnn, you definitely have Divine patience for those rabbits!

If we all worked on #1 before the rest, then # 1 wouldn't rear its ugly head in the other "thinking distortions". #1 seems to engulf the others.

[HeatherAnn]

Church would always be empty.

Struggling with one's faith is part of the plan. Can't be refined without it.

Good point... well it's good, when I'm not in the midst of a struggle, but doesn't looks so good when I am.

[HeatherAnn]

A common fallacy is underestimating the role of chance in our lives. Many things just happen for no reason. Another way of looking at your no. 8 maybe.

Another one that I often see in converts who've been members for a while is that they view their pre-baptismal self in a much more negative light than reality warrants. Most people live decent lives - why is our church full of people who think they would have become the worst of the worst had it not been for the missionaries? We don't have enough missionaries to keep civilization afloat if that were true.

OK, one more: when we think about a decision, we tend to look for things that confirm our decision rather than things that challenge it. Which is why we make so many bad decisions (well, I know I do).

Fun thread!

Thanks, Ariaretes.

Yeah, I think sometimes things happen that are hard to find reason for. Yet, we can choose to find higher purpose for it - make the best of things.

Maybe believing the church makes people good is part of polarized thinking... & so if one leaves the church, they are bad, or if the church is found to have flaws, it is bad.

It does seem like we tend to take the easy road, emotionally. It really takes a lot of work to think about different perspectives, especially those counter to what we want to believe.

[HeatherAnn]

I like to mix and match all of these on different days. Like a psychic shampoo using Ben and Jerry’s combo of their most exotic flavors!

lol Funny! Yeah, I've got a great recipe for "Thinking distortions soup" if you want it!

[HeatherAnn]

HeatherAnn, you definitely have Divine patience for those rabbits!

If we all worked on #1 before the rest, then # 1 wouldn't rear its ugly head in the other "thinking distortions". #1 seems to engulf the others.

I noticed you've been helping with Rx. I think you've got your work cut out for you in a garden I know full of rabbits!

Yeah, focusing on the positive is important. I need to write more about what I'm grateful for - there's a lot!

[HeatherAnn]

In exploring our thoughts, it shouldn't be a shameful process. Thought in itself is not really right or wrong, except in relation to circumstances.

Like a note played on a musical intrument isn't wrong, only in relation to other notes, timing or volume.

I'm trying to think of sin more broadly & with less shame, since excess shame can be a sin in itself.

IMO, Spirituality & psychology are practically the same.

Scott Peck wrote, "It is not so much the sin itself but the refusal to acknowledge it that makes it evil. Out of touch with their own sins, those who lack the humility to see their weaknesses are the most capable of contributing to evil either knowingly or unknowingly."

IMO, Spirituality & psychology (the study of the soul) are practically the same.

Freud explained the purpose of psychotherapy..."to make the unconscious conscious."

I hope to become more aware of & responsible for my thoughts, so my emotions can be better orchestrated.

[Libs]

I think bringing out the goodness in our hearts, or the kingdom of God within, starts with exploring one's thinking, not in a shameful way, but in an objective way at first, & then compassionately figuring out how to correct thinking patterns, to be happier & live more productively.

I really liked this, HeatherAnn, and it's so true. Also, our ways of thinking can become very habitual and difficult to change, without some conscious effort.

Like everyone else here, I have struggled with all of the above.

You mentioned black and white thinking, when in reality it's usually a mix. That is one I have struggled with, in conjunction with religious belief, because much of religious belief (at least, the more conservative denominations/religions) deal, mainly, in black and white, right or wrong, truth and falsehoods. Very little room for grey areas, and I have found that most frustrating, at times, because my thinking has rarely been black and white. It has been frustrating for me, because I always felt I was seeking and never "settled" on anything (for long). I have beat myself up over it and considered that a weakness, in the past, but not so much, these days. A perpetual seeker is not really a bad thing. So, the moral to this story is that sometimes we can consider ways of thinking as "sin", that are not....that may, actually, be positives, if we go with it.

I do have some habitual negatives I would like to change. The one I struggle with the most is fear. I too easily allow fear to invade my thoughts, dwelling on all of the negatives that could happen, in any given situation.

Very nice thread and great topic! Thanks for posting this thread.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Libs

[Ahab]

I believe that the essence of sin is incorrect thoughts, so repentance is correcting thinking.

Yes, correcting incorrect thoughts as well as incorrect attitudes, feelings, behaviors, actions, and many other things which aren't the same as that of our Father.

Yes, sometimes we act on thoughts & sometimes we don't, yet either way, those thoughts do have influence in how we feel, both mentally & physically.

True enough. I think I see where you're going by suggesting that everything usually starts out as a "thought" in our mind, or soul, or the center of our being.

Proberbs 23:7 reads, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he."

One of my favorite scriptures is in Luke 17, "The kingom of God is within you."

Ah, yes. An excellent thought

I think bringing out the goodness in our hearts, or the kingdom of God within, starts with exploring one's thinking, not in a shameful way, but in an objective way at first, & then compassionately figuring out how to correct thinking patterns, to be happier & live more productively.

First a person needs to know or at least have a clue that their thinking patterns need to be corrected, however.

Many people think that what they think is right and the way it should be, when in reality they're not in agreement with what our Father in heaven thinks or feels about it.

I think that's why Faith is the first princple of the gospel with Repentance coming in second.

So... I thought it might be helpful to post a list of common thinking distortions.

Which do you struggle with? Which have you overcome?

1. Filtering: filtering out positive aspects of a situation while magnifying negative

2. Polarized thinking: black- or white (when often it is a mix)

3. Overgeneralization - something happens once, but general conclusions are based on that one happening

4. Jumping to conclusions - concluding with out knowing or considering all of the facts

5. Catastrophizing - magnifying or minimizing, expecting disaster

6. Personalization - taking things personally, comparing

7. Control Fallacies - Viewing ourselves victim to external controls, or internalizing others pain (to feel control)

8. Fallacy of Fairness - Constantly looking for fairness & being disappointed (because life often isn't fair)

9. Blaming - holding others responsible for our pain, or blaming ourselves for others pain

10. Shoulds - making rules about everything - & inducing shame when rules aren't kept

11. Emotional Reasoning - thinking feelings are facts (when they aren't)

12. Fallacy of Change - Thinking we can change others & then we'll be happy (both aren't true)

13. Global Labeling - Generalizing

14. Always being right - Continually on trial to prove our opinions & actions are correct

15. Heaven's Reward Fallacy - Belief that if you suffer enough, the pay-off will be worth it after-life

... or my all time favorite, not realizing there is a problem in the first place while thinking everything a person thinks or feels is the best way to think or feel about something.

[Ahab]

In exploring our thoughts, it shouldn't be a shameful process. Thought in itself is not really right or wrong, except in relation to circumstances.

... or in relation to how someone else feels or thinks about it. It depends on who you are trying to please.

To our Father in heaven, certain things are right and certain things are wrong, with no ifs ands or buts about it. It is true that circumstances play a factor when determining what is right or wrong, even with him, but the whole thing together is either right or wrong, absolutely.

To someone else who doesn't agree with our Father in heaven, though, the same things could be considered to be in exactly in the opposite direction, with what is right to our Father being wrong to that person, and with what is wrong to our Father being right to that same person.

Thus, what is sin to one person is considered to be right and okay to another.

Like a note played on a musical intrument isn't wrong, only in relation to other notes, timing or volume.

I'm trying to think of sin more broadly & with less shame, since excess shame can be a sin in itself.

Satan doesn't think you should feel shame about anything our Father considers to be a sin, so be careful about how far you take that thought in that direction.

Here's what I do: When I want to know if something is right or wrong, I ask our Father and listen for his answer when he tells me, and when I want to know what someone else thinks or feels about something, I ask or listen to them.

[Kenngo1969]

Church would always be empty. ...

Right. Dougie wouldn't have any qualms with that state of affairs ... would you, Dougie?

[HeatherAnn]

I really liked this, HeatherAnn, and it's so true. Also, our ways of thinking can become very habitual and difficult to change, without some conscious effort.

Like everyone else here, I have struggled with all of the above.

You mentioned black and white thinking, when in reality it's usually a mix. That is one I have struggled with, in conjunction with religious belief, because much of religious belief (at least, the more conservative denominations/religions) deal, mainly, in black and white, right or wrong, truth and falsehoods. Very little room for grey areas, and I have found that most frustrating, at times, because my thinking has rarely been black and white. It has been frustrating for me, because I always felt I was seeking and never "settled" on anything (for long). I have beat myself up over it and considered that a weakness, in the past, but not so much, these days. A perpetual seeker is not really a bad thing. So, the moral to this story is that sometimes we can consider ways of thinking as "sin", that are not....that may, actually, be positives, if we go with it.

I do have some habitual negatives I would like to change. The one I struggle with the most is fear. I too easily allow fear to invade my thoughts, dwelling on all of the negatives that could happen, in any given situation.

Very nice thread and great topic! Thanks for posting this thread.

Thanks, Libs.

You aren't kidding about thinking becoming habitual - it can be difficult to change!

It's understandable that you'd be frustrated about black & white thinking... For one thing, when others are viewing things narrowly, it can be frustrating. Then also, it can be tough work & even painful to consider other perspectives that are not so comfortable, yet none-the-less an angel of truth.

I admire those who are "always seeking" - I think that's what God intended. Yet, unfortunately, in some established group belief systems, only so much seeking is honored.

I think sin is anything that causes harm. Part of me still associates shame with sin... & some sin that's appropriate with, but some sin, shame is a sin itself.

Fear is a challenge for me too. I want to feel control of things, & mistakenly think that worry will help prevent it or something.

It is good to consider consequences & plan ahead, but "moderation in all things."

[Doug the Hutt]

Right. Dougie wouldn't have any qualms with that state of affairs ... would you, Dougie?

Hi Kenngo,

I only want the truth and I've always made that case (that, and to rule the world). If the Church really is true then everybody should join it, be blessed by it and fill every pew. If it's false in the sense that Jesus warned us to watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing, then we should all avoid it. I don't have any qualms about an empty Stan-tanic building owing to how people believe Stanism is ungodly, wrong and consumes too much sodium. The point I was trying to make is that too many testimonies are negotiated with dysfunctional, inconsistent epistemologies -- mine might be the least functional among humans, but I'm trying. When a person comes to a crisis of faith and looks back on how they got to that point in their life they wonder if they would even be on this painful road if they had a better way of processing information, recognizing when someone is trying to control them, use them and take money, time and energy from them.

This is me recognizing how my life could be much different if I had developed a better way of thinking decades ago:

(the hair matches up even better than any Mesoamerican-Book-of-Mormonite-parallels encountered among LDS apologetics which they purport as bullseyes, so it must be me!)

And I suppose my online interactions regarding my LDS religion are me just trying to work it all out. But as BCSpace astutely pointed out -- it's part of the refinement.

Have a nice day.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Doug the Hutt

[HeatherAnn]

Yes, correcting incorrect thoughts as well as incorrect attitudes, feelings, behaviors, actions, and many other things which aren't the same as that of our Father.

True enough. I think I see where you're going by suggesting that everything usually starts out as a "thought" in our mind, or soul, or the center of our being.

Ah, yes. An excellent thought

First a person needs to know or at least have a clue that their thinking patterns need to be corrected, however.

Many people think that what they think is right and the way it should be, when in reality they're not in agreement with what our Father in heaven thinks or feels about it.

I think that's why Faith is the first princple of the gospel with Repentance coming in second.

Yeah, it's easy to get stubborn & self-centered about thoughts. It really helps to get others' perspectives, which is one reason I like forums & talking with others.

Good point about faith being first. Hope, faith & love are so tied together.

"Faith without works is dead."

We hope & strive for what we think is best (love) through trial & error (faitih).

I think faith is a combination of both intellect & intuition, as is repentance & love.

... or my all time favorite, not realizing there is a problem in the first place while thinking everything a person thinks or feels is the best way to think or feel about something.

Yeah - like denial, or #11 - emotional reasoning.

[HeatherAnn]

When a person comes to a crisis of faith and looks back on how they got to that point in their life they wonder if they would even be on this painful road if they had a better way of processing information, recognizing when someone is trying to control them, use them and take money, time and energy from them....

And I suppose my online interactions regarding my LDS religion are me just trying to work it all out. But as BCSpace astutely pointed out -- it's part of the refinement...

Hi Doug,

I'm doing the same - trying to bounce ideas off of others, trying to work it all out.

I wonder what better ways of processing information are there?

Boundaries are definitely important - learning to say no.

Learning to love ourselves & our families, instead of neglecting them for other pursuits.

Processing info - is a gradual process, though. You know, we don't jump from kindergarden to college.

I think it's understandable that children view their parents & others as authorities - almost god-like.

Then, as they mature, they learn to spread that authority to the spirit within, & other learning.

It can be a rough rode - just as we're "born again & again" we also "die again & again" - to old illusional perspectives.

[HeatherAnn]

... or in relation to how someone else feels or thinks about it. It depends on who you are trying to please.

That's a good point - WHO are we trying to please?

I think realizing right from wrong isn't always cut & dry. For example, are soldiers murderers? Are we murderers when we kill bugs (the commandment didn't say who not to kill).

Thus, what is sin to one person is considered to be right and okay to another.

Satan doesn't think you should feel shame about anything our Father considers to be a sin, so be careful about how far you take that thought in that direction.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of justifying ridiculous behavior, by claiming that nothing is right or wrong.

Scott Peck wrote how we are ALL selfish - everything we do is selfish.

Even those who seem unselfish, are doing what they do because of the pay off for how they feel in doing it.

There are 2 types of selfishness - smart selfishness & stupid selfishness.

Stupid selfishness is trying to avoid all pain.

Smart selfishness is tryint to discern with pain or suffering, particularly emotional suffering, is constructive & which is unconstructive.

Edited July 12, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

Not only do our thoughts affect our emotions, actions, character & spirit, thoughts also affect us physically.

Ever notice how when you've been thinking stressful thoughts, you get a headache & tight shoulders?

Or... after you laugh to the point of tears, you feel good all over?

Let me be clear: there are several factors that contribute to physical state... heredity, diet, exercise, sleep, experiences...

...and thoughts with related emotions & hormonal changes...

Dr. Bruce Lipton demonstrated how genes are not as "set in stone" as once believed & that environmental influences, especially in the form of thoughts (which affect hormones & body chemistry) are very influential.

He also showed evidence of consciousness beyond the brain. Very interesting - but a very long seminar! lol

I've realized that when I'm emotionally upset, I tend to feel physicaly upset also.

Dis-ease may be partially influenced by thoughts... So, more reason to manage our thoughts well.

Below, is a searchable website of possible metaphysical causes of illnesses & related affirmations...

(Again, this is just one piece of the puzzle to physical heatlh...)

http://www.vitalaffi...ffirmations.htm

Edited July 12, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Ahab]

Yeah - like denial, or #11 - emotional reasoning.

I was talking more about how some people get a throught and then form a conclusion about something without thinking that there are other alternatives to the thought they first got. Like how some people think they see what is "really" going on when what they see is only what someone wants them to see.

I think we all use our emotions while we reason, don't we?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Ahab

[HeatherAnn]

I was talking more about how some people get a throught and then form a conclusion about something without thinking that there are other alternatives to the thought they first got. Like how some people think they see what is "really" going on when what they see is only what someone wants them to see.

I think we all use our emotions while we reason, don't we?

Oh, ok, thanks for that clarification.

Yeah, we all see through the eyes of others - in media, our parents, religious leaders etc.

We have selective awareness, yet some have more selective awareness than others.

That's what I like about traveling to completely different places - it expands awareness.

Of course, like St. Augustine said, "Men go abroad to wonder at the heights of mountains, at the huge waves of the sea, at the long courses of the rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motions of the stars, and they pass by themselves without wondering."

Some use emotion & intuition more than others... but yeah, probably we all do, to an extent.