Does Satan Control The Waters?

[Doctor Ninja]

Below our avatars, there is a description: "newbies", "members", "contributors" etc... What do they mean, when do they change and are some personalized?

"Moves Upon the Waters" is mine. Is the same reference to the "destroyer" (satan)? I guess I have been breaking too many rules.

D&C 61:13-19

13 And now, behold, for your good I gave unto you a commandment concerning these things; and I, the Lord, will reason with you as with men in days of old.

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

[BCSpace]

Below our avatars, there is a description: "newbies", "members", "contributors" etc... What do they mean, when do they change and are some personalized?

"Moves Upon the Waters" is mine. Is the same reference to the "destroyer" (satan)? I guess I have been breaking too many rules.

Might also refer to this verse:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

Seemingly in context of a relative newbie or beginner in terms of the number of total posts as Genesis 1 is the Beginning.

Edited July 6, 2011 by BCSpace

[mapman]

Although most interpret the Destroyer as being Satan, I doubt this. I posted this at BCC a while ago:

One of the most fascinating stories from the Doctrine and Covenants is the destroyer on the Missouri River in section 61. Usually it is assumed that this would be Satan, but I think it actually makes more sense that it is the destroying angel, like the destroyer in the Passover story. Context to this revelation can be found in the HC 1:202:

“On the 9th, in company with ten Elders, I left Independence landing for Kirtland. We started down the river in canoes, and went the first way as far as Fort Osage, where we had an excellent wild turkey for supper. Nothing very important occurred till the third day, when many of the dangers so common upon the western waters, manifested themselves; and after we had encamped upon the bank of the river, at McIlwaine’s Bend, Brother Phelps, in open vision by daylight, saw the destroyer in his most horrible power, ride upon the face of the waters; others heard the noise, but saw not the vision.”

The destroyer is also mentioned in D&C 105:14-15:

“For behold, I do not require at their hands to fight the battles of Zion; for, as I said in a former commandment, even so will I fulfil—I will fight your battles. Behold, the destroyer I have sent forth to destroy and lay waste mine enemies; and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute mine heritage, and to blaspheme my name upon the lands which I have consecrated for the gathering together of my saints.”

This states that the destroyer is sent from the Lord. This usage is also used in the Word of Wisdom, which links this to its more commonly used meaning outside of revelations, to refer to mortal illnesses. For example in Heber C. Kimball’s autobiography he wrote:

“On the morning of the 24th we started for Liberty, Clay County, where our brethren were residing, who had been driven from Jackson County, taking our course round the head of Fishing River, in consequence of high water. When we got within five or six miles of Liberty, General Atchison, and several other gentlemen, met us, desiring that we would not go to Liberty, as the feelings of the people of that place was much enraged against us. Changing our course and bearing to the left, we pursued our way across a prairie; then passing through a wood until we came to brother Sidney Gilberts, where we camped on the bottom of Rush Creek, in a field belonging to brother Burket on the 25th. This night the cholera came upon us, as we had been warned by the servant of God. About 12 o’clock at night we began to hear the cries of those who were seized with the cholera, and they fell before the destroyer. Even those on guard fell with their guns in their hands to the ground, and we had to exert ourselves considerably to attend to the sick, for they fell on every hand. Thus it continued till morning when the camp was separated into several small bands and were dispersed among the brethren.” (http://www.boap.org/.../HCKimball.html)

And in Jonathan Crosby’s autobiography:

“The Destroyer was after me as soon as I was born into the world. When I was nine years old, in the winter of 1816, I was attacked with the spotted fever which prevailed at that time. Many children of my age were made deaf and dumb. The doctor that attended on me had two boys near my age who were deprived of those senses by that disease and at last, the doctor himself, was taken with the same disease and died. I went to his funeral with my parents. Through the blessing of God, by the vigilance of my mother, I was spared. Again, when I was eleven years old the Destroyer was after me, for I was taken with “Putrid Disentery” which brought me near the point of death. . . When I was seventeen years old I got hurt and had a sore on my side. The Destroyer thought he had me then, and the neighbors thought I was going to die but our Father in Heaven thought differently. By His blessing my life was spared, not by the faith of anybody except that they had faith in the doctor who attended me. But the Lord blessed the means used, and I was restored, although I was not able to do anything for six months or more and I have felt the effects of it all my life.”

(http://www.boap.org/...ts/JCrosby.html)

And from the autobiography of Nancy Tracy:

“A young lady, Emily Fuller by name, had joined the church and came from another branch to visit for a few days. She was at Brother Blaksley’s and was suddenly taken ill and went into convulsions. She grew worse. Her frame was racked with cramping. It took three or four of us to keep her on the bed. The elders were away quite a distance, filling appointments. My husband was at home, but he only held the office of a deacon, so consequently could not administer the ordinance of the laying on of hands to rebuke the destroyer. But everything was done that could be, but nothing relieved her. It seemed the evil spirits were bound to destroy her. At last my husband got on a horse and rode 14 miles and brought Elder Ducher to administer to her. She was in great agony when he came in. He knelt down and prayed mightily for strength and power that he might rebuke the destroyer and bid him depart. He arose and went to the bed side, laid his hands upon her head and clothed with the authority and power of the priesthood, be rebuked the destroyer and told her to be made whole and arise from her bed, which she did and called for water to wash and the comb to comb her hair, although she was very weak for she had been in this state for twenty-four hours. Time can never erase this from my memory for I was an eye witness of the whole thing and it was the power of God that raised her up.” (http://www.boap.org/...nts/NTracy.html)

Bloodthirsty angels are present elsewhere in the scriptures, such as in D&C 86:5-7:

“Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields; But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also. Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned.”

You get the sense that the Lord has to restrain the angels from coming down and destroying people (and in section 61 the Lord says he’s not restraining the destroyer from causing havoc on the river).

A related image is Death (a.k.a. the Grim Reaper) on the pale horse in Revelation.

Fun stuff.

Here

Edited July 6, 2011 by mapman

[bluebell]

Posters are labeled based upon how many posts they have. Each number of posts (like 101-299, for example) has a different label, and-after 'newbie'-all the titles are references to the creation.

Check out other people's lables and you'll see (unless they've personalized it) all different aspects of the creation represented.

[rodheadlee]

Below our avatars, there is a description: "newbies", "members", "contributors" etc... What do they mean, when do they change and are some personalized?

"Moves Upon the Waters" is mine. Is the same reference to the "destroyer" (satan)? I guess I have been breaking too many rules.

Oh great, now you point this out D&C 61:13-19. We've just spent most of our money making a refuge upon the waters. Today we bought a watermaker on craigslist, it's in great shape for a great price. It'll make 6 gallons of fresh water out of salt water every hour using 11 amps of 12 volt DC. It'll help keep our 200 gallon water tanks full. I still have to buy 3 more solar panels and a wind generator to run it on. "Moves Upon the Waters" would be a great name for a sailboat.

Which waters were these?

[Ron Beron]

I often wondered about this scenario and I thought that perhaps it was part of New England folktale. I haven't found anything yet, but it is significant that in Babylonian mythology Tiamat, the goddess of bitter waters mated with Abzu, god of the sweet waters and made all of creation. Tiamat eventually became associated with chaos, war and a great serpent which was eventually subdued by Marduk.

When in the height heaven was not named,

And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,

And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,

And chaos, Tiamat, the mother of them both

Their waters were mingled together,

Eventually Tiamat, upset over the noise the younger gods were making waged war in the heavens...

And Tiamat harkened unto the word of the bright god, and said:

... shalt thou entrust! let us wage war!"

... the gods in the midst of...

... for the gods did she create.

They banded themselves together and at the side of Tiamat they advanced;

They were furious; they devised mischief without resting night and day.

They prepared for battle, fuming and raging;

They joined their forces and made war,

Ummu-Hubur [Tiamat] who formed all things,

Made in addition weapons invincible; she spawned monster-serpents,

Sharp of tooth, and merciless of fang;

With poison, instead of blood, she filled their bodies.

Fierce monster-vipers she clothed with terror,

With splendor she decked them, she made them of lofty stature.

Whoever beheld them, terror overcame him,

Their bodies reared up and none could withstand their attack.

She set up vipers and dragons, and the monster Lahamu,

And hurricanes, and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,

And mighty tempests, and fish-men, and rams;

They bore cruel weapons, without fear of the fight.

Her commands were mighty, none could resist them;

It all comes to an end when Marduk or "son-child" or "son-of-the-sun" defeats the forces of Tiamat.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Ron Beron

[Doctor Ninja]

Although most interpret the Destroyer as being Satan, I doubt this. I posted this at BCC a while ago:

Excellent article! Thanks for sharing!

[Doctor Ninja]

Oh great, now you point this out D&C 61:13-19. We've just spent most of our money making a refuge upon the waters. Today we bought a watermaker on craigslist, it's in great shape for a great price. It'll make 6 gallons of fresh water out of salt water every hour using 11 amps of 12 volt DC. It'll help keep our 200 gallon water tanks full. I still have to buy 3 more solar panels and a wind generator to run it on. "Moves Upon the Waters" would be a great name for a sailboat.

Which waters were these?

Looks like you are definitely prepared and yes a great name!

I have no idea what waters, but I wouldn't worry. I always though it related to missionaries, but apparently not.

[Doctor Ninja]

I often wondered about this scenario and I thought that perhaps it was part of New England folktale. I haven't found anything yet, but it is significant that in Babylonian mythology Tiamat, the goddess of bitter waters mated with Abzu, god of the sweet waters and made all of creation. Tiamat eventually became associated with chaos, war and a great serpent which was eventually subdued by Marduk.

When in the height heaven was not named,

And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,

And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,

And chaos, Tiamat, the mother of them both

Their waters were mingled together,

Eventually Tiamat, upset over the noise the younger gods were making waged war in the heavens...

And Tiamat harkened unto the word of the bright god, and said:

... shalt thou entrust! let us wage war!"

... the gods in the midst of...

... for the gods did she create.

They banded themselves together and at the side of Tiamat they advanced;

They were furious; they devised mischief without resting night and day.

They prepared for battle, fuming and raging;

They joined their forces and made war,

Ummu-Hubur [Tiamat] who formed all things,

Made in addition weapons invincible; she spawned monster-serpents,

Sharp of tooth, and merciless of fang;

With poison, instead of blood, she filled their bodies.

Fierce monster-vipers she clothed with terror,

With splendor she decked them, she made them of lofty stature.

Whoever beheld them, terror overcame him,

Their bodies reared up and none could withstand their attack.

She set up vipers and dragons, and the monster Lahamu,

And hurricanes, and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,

And mighty tempests, and fish-men, and rams;

They bore cruel weapons, without fear of the fight.

Her commands were mighty, none could resist them;

It all comes to an end when Marduk or "son-child" or "son-of-the-sun" defeats the forces of Tiamat.

Very interesting. Where did you find that picture?

[mapman]

Excellent article! Thanks for sharing!

Sorry, I messed up on how I linked to that. To clarify, I didn't make that article on BCC, but just added a (really long) comment below. I don't know if that's how you interpreted it, but I want to make sure that no one got the wrong impression.

Edited July 6, 2011 by mapman

[mapman]

Which waters were these?

They were on the Missouri River, and more specifically McIlwaine's Bend.

I just found something cool at josephsmithpapers.org: The earliest manuscript for section 61 is introduced like this:

64 Commandment given Aug 12th. 1831

on the Bank of the River Distruction (or Missorie) unfolding some mysteries &c &c

River Destruction. That's pretty cool.

Edited July 6, 2011 by mapman

[Doctor Ninja]

They were on the Missouri River, and more specifically McIlwaine's Bend.

I just found something cool at josephsmithpapers.org: The original manuscript for section 61 is introduced like this:

River Destruction. That's pretty cool.

I am loving those papers! Good find!

Described in 1839 as having currents of about five to six miles per hour above confluence with Mississippi River, with flooding season March–July. Major westward travel route, with landing three miles from Independence courthouse, Jackson Co., Missouri.

[Ron Beron]

Very interesting. Where did you find that picture?

Just google Tiamat. Many pictures portraying her as a serpent will come up.

[Doctor Steuss]

If Satan controls the waters, Christ chose a rather strange medium for baptism.

[Doctor Ninja]

If Satan controls the waters, Christ chose a rather strange medium for baptism.

Why? The Lord can control satan and the waters.

[Doctor Steuss]

Why? The Lord can control satan and the waters.

1 Thessalonians 5:22

[Doctor Ninja]

1 Thessalonians 5:22

You are giving satan way too much credit for the Savior set the example for all of us and was also baptized by water. With the power of the Savior, satan can only bruise our heel.

2 Nephi: 31:

[Doctor Steuss]

You are giving satan way too much credit [...]

I'm not sure how much credit a person can give to something they don't think exists.

[Doctor Ninja]

I'm not sure how much credit a person can give to something they don't think exists.

So I have been duped by your scriptural reference to "evil" followed by a "devil" emoticon. Congrats!

Edited July 8, 2011 by Doctor Ninja

[Doctor Steuss]

So I have been duped by your scriptural reference to "evil" followed by a "devil" emoticon. Congrats!

Ninja's aren't the only kind of sneeky doctors in this joint.

[Nathair/|\]

I'm not sure how much credit a person can give to something they don't think exists.

I don't agree with the last point here, but I though you might like it.

http://www.turoks.net/Cabana/Top10ReasonsWhyWitchesDontWorshipSatan.php

[rodheadlee]

Looks like you are definitely prepared and yes a great name!

I have no idea what waters, but I wouldn't worry. I always though it related to missionaries, but apparently not.

Thanks, I guess I'm ok if it's the Missouri River.