God Changed His Mind...

[KevinG]

The phrase "God changed his mind" most famously used in the Book of Mormon musical buy a missionary explaining the ordination of blacks was also used (I think humorously) on another thread about mission calls when a missionary visa didn't get processed fast enough.

To explain away changes in plans or practices as "God changing His mind" is a fundamental misunderstanding of callings, promptings, revealed truth and human agency.

There are many reasons that heavenly designs can be changed that are consistent with our doctrines besides assuming God changed His mind (which is possible I suppose but not very likely in the context it is usually presented).

One reason would be that the subject of a revelation could be in the middle of a test. Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac is an example of this.

Another reason would be that the agency of others could interfere with our ability to complete a task or make a sacrifice as called. This is addressed in the D&C 124:49

49Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their ^adiligence, and their enemies come upon them and ^bhinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to ^crequire that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

(I think the principle applies to any obstacle not just enemies coming upon someone.)

Yet another reason is that we may not have complete information or we may simply misunderstand the edicts of the Lord. I have often prayed with my spouse or another counselor only to find out neither one of us knew the full story until we came together in counsel.

The point of this thread is to discuss why the answer God must have changed His mind could be damaging from a faithful point of view as well as for our critics to indulge in it as parody.

Knowing that truth exists in its own sphere (D&C 93:30) and that we come closer to it by coming closer to God who reveals it I wonder if thinking God lightly "changes His mind" isn't potentially damaging to our understanding of faith, agency, revelation and the nature of God?

[Kevin Christensen]

The "God changed his mind bit" is meant to ironic and sophisticated, though from my perspective, it comes across as simple minded, knee-jerk smart-alec mockery.

However, I think it a bit more sophisticated to look a bit closer at things like the D&C passages I quote so often on "inasmuch as they erred, it shall be made manifest," and the relationship of inquiry to revelation.

And things like the story of Abraham and Isaac. When God commanded Abraham to offer up Isaac, did God want Isaac dead?

And if not, why would God ask such a thing? Did God change his mind, or did he having something else in mind? Why did Abraham tell the others that after going up the mount that he and Isaac would return?

Isaiah 55 ought to provoke serious introspection and genuine humility, in the place of such faux problem facing, and smarmy "just-believe" depictions.

¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my aways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[KevinG]

Thank you Kevin- you are taking the discussion where I intended to go.

I think it is dangerous to project our human frailties onto God - from both a faithful or a mocking perspective. Perhaps it is more dangerous for us to do so as faithful LDS because it can cause us to blame God for our own human frailties or because God respects the agency of all His children.

This is similar to someone blaming God or assuming someine is sinful because of their misfortunes.

[BCSpace]

The point of this thread is to discuss why the answer God must have changed His mind could be damaging from a faithful point of view as well as for our critics to indulge in it as parody.

If someone who claims to be a Christian uses this argument against the Church, it should be noted that the Bible itself gives the criteria for God to change His mind. Jeremiah 18:1-10

I would agree that God is not really changing His mind though. He is simply allowing consquences to flow as the result of our free agent choices.

[elguanteloko]

I want you to notice something, DaddyG. You first said that:

There are many reasons that heavenly designs can be changed that are consistent with our doctrines besides assuming God changed His mind (which is possible I suppose but not very likely in the context it is usually presented). (underline added by elguanteloko)

Which says that the design actually changed, not that it was already determined but it became proper at another time to change strategy according to plan. Do you see the difference? "The plan said Abraham was going to be prevented from killing Isaac" is a different from saying "Wow, Abraham IS going to kill Isaac! Let's change the plan now to NOT kill Isaac."

Notice what you say after:

One reason would be that the subject of a revelation could be in the middle of a test. Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac is an example of this.

This implies that it was a test all along and the plan didn't really had to change but that preventing Abraham from killing Isaac was already according to plan. Then, then plan didn't had to change or the "heavenly design" didn't change at all.

Which one is it, then? Does the plan (the one in God's mind which, supposedly, knows everything) actually change or was it all a plan all along?

Another reason would be that the agency of others could interfere with our ability to complete a task or make a sacrifice as called. This is addressed in the D&C 124:49

So, God sends pillars of fire, turns water into blood, sends plagues at one time... but at other times he HAS to wait in sending his messengers because they are going to be prevented by men? This doesn't sound very convincing at all, DG.

Yet another reason is that we may not have complete information or we may simply misunderstand the edicts of the Lord. I have often prayed with my spouse or another counselor only to find out neither one of us knew the full story until we came together in counsel.

This sounds a little bit better, DG, though this isn't free from problems. This can only be accepted on faith without any evidence of God actually having reasons you would approve of since, by your own admission, we don't or wouldn't know them. Then, you just trust God has good reasons (the good YOU would approve of) without any evidence to suppose he has those reasons in the first place.

The point of this thread is to discuss why the answer God must have changed His mind could be damaging from a faithful point of view as well as for our critics to indulge in it as parody.

...and I thought I was a cynic.

Knowing that truth exists in its own sphere (D&C 93:30) and that we come closer to it by coming closer to God who reveals it I wonder if thinking God lightly "changes His mind" isn't potentially damaging to our understanding of faith, agency, revelation and the nature of God?

I'm going to open a thread on faith, btw, and I hope I can count with your participation. I would enjoy that.

[CV75]

The point of this thread is to discuss why the answer God must have changed His mind could be damaging from a faithful point of view as well as for our critics to indulge in it as parody.

Whether in parody or as a belief, the suggestion that “God changed His mind” is false and is therefore damaging to one’s own faith. The whole idea behind out mortal probation is for us to exercise agency to change our minds and come into alignment with God’s mind (D&C 88:49).

[Deborah]

It isn't a matter of God changing his mind but rather of circumstances changing and so plan B goes into effect rather than plan A. If, the people repent, then....

I've always found D&C 9 interesting in this regard (Oliver given opportunity to translate):

10 Now, if you had known this you could have translated; nevertheless, it is not expedient that you should translate now.

11 Behold, it was expedient when you commenced; but you feared, and the time is past, and it is not expedient now;

12 For, do you not behold that I have given unto my servant Joseph sufficient strength, whereby it is made up? And neither of you have I condemned.

[Kevin Christensen]

Here is one place that illustrates how one could argue, without irony or cynicism, that God changed his mind in response to human desire.

3 Nephi 17:

But now I ago unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.

5 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus spoken, he cast his eyes round about again on the multitude, and beheld they were in tears, and did look steadfastly upon him as if they would ask him to tarry a little longer with them.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, my bowels are filled with compassion towards you.

7 Have ye any that are sick among you? Bring them hither. Have ye any that are lame, or blind, or halt, or maimed, or leprous, or that are withered, or that are deaf, or that are afflicted in any manner? Bring them hither and I will heal them, for I have compassion upon you; my bowels are filled with mercy.

8 For I perceive that ye desire that I should show unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Jaybear]

The "God changed his mind bit" is meant to ironic and sophisticated, though from my perspective, it comes across as simple minded, knee-jerk smart-alec mockery.

Yes, I agree. Sometimes, of course, simple minded, knee jerk smart-alec mokery works best. This would appear to be one of those instances, since that song is one of the most quoted songs from the play.

However, I think it a bit more sophisticated to look a bit closer at things like the D&C passages I quote so often on "inasmuch as they erred, it shall be made manifest," and the relationship of inquiry to revelation.

Context, Kevin, context.

If you are presenting a paper explaining the revelation lifting the priesthood ban to a Mormon audience who share your belief that your leaders speak to and for God, and that lifting the ban was the product of divine revelation, then yes, that approach would be far more "sophisticated."

But if you are writing a play intended to have mass appeal, the default assumption of the audience is that God had nothing to do with the priesthood ban, and in 78 the Brethren in SLC were not implementing God's will through revelation by lifting the ban, but correcting a human mistake born of a racism culture. In this context, the purpose of the line, God changed his mind, was not to explain to the audience why the ban was lifted, but rather to highlight and make fun of the gullibility of Mormons, for readily excusing an overtly racist policy implemented by their leaders, and retained long after it should have been corrected.

In this context, the line "God changed his mind," is similar to Flip Wilson's famous line: "The devil made me do it."

Since you believe that the change to the policy 78 was the product of revelation, and the writers are mocking that very belief, you should not be expected to find the line humorous.

[bluebell]

Yes, I agree. Sometimes, of course, simple minded, knee jerk smart-alec mokery works best.

But usually it's just the most childish and least mentally challenging way to address an issue while still getting your point across.

That's probably why 'i'm rubber and you're glue' remains one of the most quoted childhood sayings of all time.

[Jaybear]

But usually it's just the most childish and least mentally challenging way to address an issue while still getting your point across.

That's probably why 'i'm rubber and you're glue' remains one of the most quoted childhood sayings of all time.

What do you think is the point of the song?

[CV75]

Here is one place that illustrates how one could argue, without irony or cynicism, that God changed his mind in response to human desire.

3 Nephi 17:

But now I ago unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.

5 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus spoken, he cast his eyes round about again on the multitude, and beheld they were in tears, and did look steadfastly upon him as if they would ask him to tarry a little longer with them.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, my bowels are filled with compassion towards you.

7 Have ye any that are sick among you? Bring them hither. Have ye any that are lame, or blind, or halt, or maimed, or leprous, or that are withered, or that are deaf, or that are afflicted in any manner? Bring them hither and I will heal them, for I have compassion upon you; my bowels are filled with mercy.

8 For I perceive that ye desire that I should show unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Yes, in response to their desire that He should show what He did for their brethren in Jerusalem, and their faith having being sufficient to heal them. I think about this in two ways: 1) He always had compassion upon them, and He was always of a mind to heal them pending their faith in Him, and now they could receive these things; 2) they mustered sufficient faith and desire after hearing that He was about to leave.

[bluebell]

What do you think is the point of the song?

It's just an immature way for a kid to attempt to gain a measure of control over a situation he has no real power to actually change.

It's a way to express emotion while trying to be clever, though, as most kids eventually learn, it doesn't work and usually leads to more ridicule.

It get's his point across (which is 'hey, i don't like it when you say that!'), but despite it's popularity, it's not the best way to do so.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't have a problem with God changing his mind per say. Animal sacrifice was how God wanted it under the Law of Moses. But that was changed to a human broken heart and contrite spirit under Jesus. But I guess lampooning someones sacred ideas is more fun than actually learning about what they believe. At least it makes more money and gets Tony Awards.

Edited June 28, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Jaybear]

It's just an immature way for a kid to attempt to gain a measure of control over a situation he has no real power to actually change.

It's a way to express emotion while trying to be clever, though, as most kids eventually learn, it doesn't work and usually leads to more ridicule.

It get's his point across (which is 'hey, i don't like it when you say that!'), but despite it's popularity, it's not the best way to do so.

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

The line "God changed his mind" is found in a song during the Book of Mormon Broadway play.

Since you were criticizing that line, as a "childish and least mentally challenging way to address an issue while still getting your point across." I asked what you thought the point of the song in the BOM play.

Afterall how can you say that its a childish and least mentally challenging way to get the point accross, unless you know what the point is?

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

So Mormons are too stupid to know when they're being mocked?

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

So Mormons are too stupid to know when they're being mocked?

Oh, I know that you know that you are being mocked.

What I question is whether you know WHY you are being mocked. The OP, and the comments that follows, suggest to me that some of you don't.

[bluebell]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

The line "God changed his mind" is found in a song during the Book of Mormon Broadway play.

Since you were criticizing that line, as a "childish and least mentally challenging way to address an issue while still getting your point across." I asked what you thought the point of the song in the BOM play.

Afterall how can you say that its a childish and least mentally challenging way to get the point accross, unless you know what the point is?

Yes, i did misunderstand you. I apologize.

The poing of the song-or that line in the song precisely-seems to be to show what the writers of the song believe about certain mormon beliefs and to imply to others that if they don't want to be made fun of, they should agree with them.

If the writers really want other people to agree with their world view though, it's not the best way to go about doing it.

My post was in response to your assertion that sometimes "simple minded, knee jerk smart-alec mokery works best." My point was that, though it may work, according to what the person saying it thinks is 'working', in reality, it doesn't work 'best'. It usually makes it easier to dismiss what the person is saying-to ignore their points and roll your eyes at them-to find them biased and ignorant of the topic in dispute and not worth listening to.

And in a deeper sense, such communications often make things worse because they often shows a complete lack of ability or desire of the person resorting to "simple minded, knee jerk smart-alec mokery" to engage the topic with any kind of desire to actually understand it, and what we don't need more of in the world-what makes the world worse, rahter than 'best'-is people who are comfortable making fun of something for laughs and an easy 'score' without caring whether or not they actually understand it.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

It is irrelevant as to why anyone is mocked. The victum is not the offending party.

Assailant to judge: But your Honor she put my hands around her neck.

[bluebell]

Oh, I know that you know that you are being mocked.

What I question is whether you know WHY you are being mocked. The OP, and the comments that follows, suggest to me that some of you don't.

I would probably say it's the same reason that atheists are mock sometimes, that Jews are mocked sometimes, that scientologits, JW's, Evangelicals, Catholics, and even pagans are mocked sometimes-

the baseness of human nature which we all give in to from time to time.

[ldsfaqs]

This is also what I discovered as to the Priesthood issue for example. That God never actually "changed his mind" at all. What he did was simply waited for the correct circumstances (i.e. the black man finally free of racism), to then allow full Priesthood blessings to go to those of African lineage. The Priesthood needed to operate according to the principles of freedom and within free agency. Until the African was finally free, the Priesthood had to be held back. Gods purposes is not mans shortsightedness.

[KevinG]

Without going back through the whole thread to answer every charge... the key to understanding the OP is a clear understanding of God's respect for our agency, even when we aren't using it well.

I don't believe in a God that doles out instant retribution or correction for every infraction of His law. He lets us grow, mature, make mistakes, repent, learn from mistakes, etc.

Jaybear- I understand why we are mocked and in my OP you may note that I blame the faithful for simplistic and erronious views of "God's mind" as well as those who mock us.