Can "Perfect Parents" Kill Faith?

[saemo]

DaddyG, I think the mistake is thinking that the described behavior is associated to Mormon ideals. Children tie them together because their parents do. So if you're beating a 4 year old to the point of scars, while telling him it's because he didn't choose the right....the hate and resent aimed at the abuse and the abuser will be shared with the "reasons" given for the abuse. (BTW, did anyone turn the beast in for child abuse?) If you're children are kept so tight in line they can't breath, all under the name of religious belief, off course they are going to see the religion as the cause of tyranny.

Does this kill faith? Maybe, maybe not. I think more likely that it creates an environment where faith is not even in the equation. ie, it was never there to lose.

[KevinG]

I was with you until i read this post. After i read it though, the OP seemed more like a chance for some old fashion venting about families you perceive as a judgeming your family unrighteously than honest refection on how we can be better parents.

I agree that we can overparent and i agree that some people are just plain snobby and rude. It's impossible to call such people to repentance by saying bad things about their parenting and charging them with ruining their children though.

The post was meant to be introspective (as a people) and not critical of a particular family. That is why there are no names. The bahaviors described are real and a composite of behaviors I've seen over the years. I don't really care that some of these families deem me unworthy (and frankly my kids don't either).

I'm not calling them to repentance and if put in a position to councel might encourage them to be patient- I would not scold someone about their parenting.

Hope that clears up my motive for poisting. It was an "all is not well in Zion and what can we do to repent" moment for me.

Honest to goodness the pain or embarassment they have caused me and mine is minimal. I honestly worry about the impact on future generations of Saints and converts who visit only to be presented with an unobtainable picture of Sainthood.

If I have a big axe to grind it is about the investigators I've brought that were scared away. One when she stepped outside for a smoke and the "cool" sisters treated her like a leper. Another who just couldn't see her family living up to the "standards" preached by one of our earthly perfectionists.

[KevinG]

Another axe I'm grinding is when my own children are so offended by adult sisters gossping and unrightously judging them that they don't want to go back.

Now I've been very honest about my own axes and how much I gind them. Who doesn't have an axe to grind when they post questions about our culture or doctrines (pro or con)?

That does not invalidate the point that striving for a false perfection (or false Mormon values) can damage our childrens faith if we aren't as concerned with being examples of more important gospel principles like love, longsuffering, patience, repentance, faith, etc.

[Walden]

I'm sure there are a few of the OP type of family in every ward, but my experience is that by far they are the exception rather than the rule, and it's a good thing. They do more harm to their chldren and others than good with sad results.

My experience has been families with a more balanced approach... TBM (as I now consider myself) without going overboard or "beyond the mark" so to speak.

When my step-dad first converted and we became an active family, my folks touched on the edges of this type of behavior, but thankfully mellowed as they became more understanding of the gospel and genuine faith. But they never were close to the family you described.

My own inactivity was my own doing, not because of them. But, my reactivation was more because of them and their example of living the gospel with true faith, along with the promptings of the Spirit through the years, and several very specific answers to prayers when I cried out to Heavenly Father.

Your brush is too broad, that's for sure... I'm thankful to say.

GG

I agree with Garden Girl....the "perfect" LDS family model is the exception and not the rule, and the ones that I saw while being raised in the church generally didn't end very well.

My own family was pretty balanced. My parents were TBM (and I don't use that as a derogatory term, just to identify them as fully believing, fully participating members, as maybe opposed to "new order mormons" and the like) and there were certainly expectations related to our faith in our household. Those living under my parents roof would attend church on Sunday. We were expected to pay thithing, attend seminary, participate in scouts, etc....pretty normal, generic LDS stuff.

But my parents also realized the virtue of letting us think for ourselves, of practicing our agency. One instance that I remember as a youth, and which was indicative of their type of parenting, was an all-star soccer game that I was chosen to participate in that was scheduled for a Sunday. My parents explained to me the importance they saw in obeying the Sabbath and we discussed the repercussions of the different paths that I could choose in making that decision (abiding by biblical and LDS teachings vs. possible disdain/scorn from my soccer teammates, etc.) . Then they left the decision to me. My parents were great like that.....they didn't sweat the little stuff (the LDS "image" stuff), but rather, ensured that us kids were aware of their beliefs regarding certain decisions, presented us with the scriptural or religious basis for their beliefs, discussed the pros and cons, and then let us make our own decisions. And then they supported us no matter what decision we made.

In the end, it worked out pretty well. I am the only "apostate" of their six children, the others married in the temple and full participants in the LDS faith to this day.

[Kevin Christensen]

Brigham Young on the topic of what makes a good parent:

I make these remarks to lay the foundation for principle in the minds of the people; and if you do not yet understand what I would be at, I will try to illustrate it still further. For example, we will take a strict, religious, holy, down country, eastern Yankee, who would whip a beer barrel for working on Sunday, and never suffer a child to go into company of his age, never suffer him to have any associates, or permit him to do any thing or know anything, only what the deacon, priests, or missionaries bring to the house; when that child attains to mature age, say eighteen or twenty years, he is very apt to steal away from his father and mother; and when he has broken his bands, you would think all h*** was let loose, and that he would compass the world at once.

Now understand it, when parents whip their children for reading novels, and never let them go to the theatre, or to any place of recreation and amusement, but bind them to the moral law, until duty becomes loathsome to them; when they are freed by age from the rigorous training of their parents, they are more fit for companions to devils, than to be the children of such religious parents.

If I do not learn what is in the world, from first to last, somebody will be wiser than I am. I intend to know the whole of it, both good and bad. Shall I practise evil? No; neither have I told you to practise it, but to learn by the light of truth every principle there is in existence in the world.

Journal of Discourses, 2:34.

Courtesy a good essay with more from Brigham, by Ben Spackman:

http://www.patheos.com/community/mormonportal/2010/08/19/brigham-young-studying-evil-and-living-in-a-bubble/

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[CV75]

The grounding needs to be accompanied by unconditional love.

Of course--this is what I mean by charity.

[Log]

Does striving for the earthly appearance of perfection cheat our children of the very mistakes and experiences they need to build faith in God? Are we as a people honoring their God given agency?

I have an interesting counter-question. When, during the millenium, our children grow up without sin to the age of man, and are then changed in a twinkling of an eye into their resurrected state, will they have had faith in God? Will they have had agency?

[rodheadlee]

The post was meant to be introspective (as a people) and not critical of a particular family. That is why there are no names. The bahaviors described are real and a composite of behaviors I've seen over the years. I don't really care that some of these families deem me unworthy (and frankly my kids don't either).

I'm not calling them to repentance and if put in a position to councel might encourage them to be patient- I would not scold someone about their parenting.

Hope that clears up my motive for poisting. It was an "all is not well in Zion and what can we do to repent" moment for me.

Honest to goodness the pain or embarassment they have caused me and mine is minimal. I honestly worry about the impact on future generations of Saints and converts who visit only to be presented with an unobtainable picture of Sainthood.

If I have a big axe to grind it is about the investigators I've brought that were scared away. One when she stepped outside for a smoke and the "cool" sisters treated her like a leper. Another who just couldn't see her family living up to the "standards" preached by one of our earthly perfectionists.

Their impact is also on the neighbors who do not belong to the Church. My good friend grew up in a small mostly Mormon community shunned by his TBM neighbors and he hates Mormons to this day. Had he been loved by his neighbors instead of shunned I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my life trying to convert him. Not that I mind, I love the guy.

[CV75]

I have an interesting counter-question. When, during the millenium, our children grow up without sin to the age of man, and are then changed in a twinkling of an eye into their resurrected state, will they have had faith in God? Will they have had agency?

They will need faith in God because they will not be in an environment where they will naturally see the Father face-to-face or live in an exalted state. Being born into a paradise/terrestrial world, they will need faith and agency to advance and develop celestial-level skills.

[KevinG]

But my parents also realized the virtue of letting us think for ourselves, of practicing our agency.

How does that jive with your comments that you had your religion chosen for you and that certain information was kept from you until you discovered it in your 20's?

[KevinG]

I have an interesting counter-question. When, during the millenium, our children grow up without sin to the age of man, and are then changed in a twinkling of an eye into their resurrected state, will they have had faith in God? Will they have had agency?

That is an excellent question and one I have pondered. I suspect the millenium with a bound adversary will still include agency. How that translates to individual salvation and testing- I don't know?

[KevinG]

Their impact is also on the neighbors who do not belong to the Church. My good friend grew up in a small mostly Mormon community shunned by his TBM neighbors and he hates Mormons to this day. Had he been loved by his neighbors instead of shunned I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my life trying to convert him. Not that I mind, I love the guy.

Yeah- one of the saddest things I can ever hear is "you guys are pretty cool for Mormons" while one of the gladdest I can hear is "I know your church, we lived near some Mormons and they were really great neighbors".

[CV75]

That is an excellent question and one I have pondered. I suspect the millenium with a bound adversary will still include agency. How that translates to individual salvation and testing- I don't know?

The Garden of Eden was a paradise, and that is where Adam and Eve were once tested, so testing can also be accomplished on a Millennial paradisaical earth. Salvation will be necessary because of the testing (nobody is perfect), and also because death will still occur, however brief the experience may be.

I think people might be tested on their own imperfections without a Satan to instigate them. While Satan will be bound in general for the collective inhabitants of the earth, there may be instances of people experimenting with his “unbinding” on an individual, private, secret basis, which I think would elicit rather immediate priesthood intervention to protect those not so inclined to experiment.

[ebeddoulos]

I started this thread because of the frequent number of times I've been confronted with the "ignorance borne of TBM parents" reason given for aspostacy.

Are there things we can do culturally as Saints and parents to help our children grow gentle as lambs but wise as serpents?

I do not worry about what others do nor do I care about their opinions. Perhaps I should but I have more than enough on my own plate.

My father (life long inactive) is a very wise man. On the eve of my marriage, he sat me down and told me that my sole responsibility as a husband and a father was to be loving and consistent and he emphasized the latter. I think my dad was right. My bride and I tried our best to follow his advice. Our kids always knew where they stood with us. They knew that we would discipline them if they screwed up and that we would still love them and wipe away their tears as we shed a few of my own. My bride and I have had many disagreements over the years but never about intimacy or money; always about child rearing. We have made our share of mistakes and have been blessed with our share of trials. We have experienced the sadness and joy of the prodigal returned. Our children are currently all active; all married in the temple; all good citizens and all good Latter-day Saints. We now worry about the grandchildren. Thankfully it appears as though our children are better parents than we were. Oh, one final note. I cannot take credit for any of the above. I married above my station.

[KevinG]

I cannot take credit for any of the above. I married above my station.

Hard not to do when you covenenat to be a partner to a daughter of God!

[rpn]

See really perfect parents are not about the result, but about teaching the principle and living them fully and repenting quickly, encouraging testimony and service, and unconditional belief in divine worth and long term views, and full respect for agency and its use. When they do that, there is no rebellion, or if there is rebellion it is against God not against them.

It is parents who use force and violate agency in their efforts to get the wonderful results and appearances that make it hard for kiddos to really get that relationship with their Savior that heals wounds and helps them fly.