Was Moroni The 10Th Ruler Of Tikal

[nosmelone]

In Dr. Robert Pates book "Mormon Names in Mayan Stone" he has a section based on the name Moroni, He is speaking mainly of the last prophet of the Book of Mormon. He states that,

In Guatemalan geography and history one finds two villages named Almolonga by the Spaniards, which Recinos (1953, 127n) says the Mexicans called Atmulaunca from the word moloni. As we know, the Nahua people did not use the letter “R” in their spoken language, Nahuatl. They were aware of the letter and the sound but they did not like the people or the language of the people who used the letter “R”. Bernardino de Sahagun wrote that the Aztec people referred to the people who used the “R” in their language as those who spoke with a “barbarous tongue”. This may have referred to some Chinese intrusion. The Chinese do an “R” for “L” switch on their spoken language. It has been documented that the Chinese were in the Americas. The only question is how soon. The evidence would indicate that it was prior to Lehi’s arrival. We know that the Chinese sailors frequented the Americas. We have also seen the “L” for “R” among the Chorti Maya branch of the Cholan group of Maya. Thus, Moloni is exactly Moroni.

Moloni (Moroni) has reference to the hot water thermals in volcanic regions and translates into Mek’ina or “hot water” in Quiche. Thus, we have two forms of the name Moroni, one from Nahuatl and one from Maya, Moloni and Mek’ina’ respectively. The Mek’ina form shows up in the Hopi language of Arizona where mukina means “to warm up”. It is the Mek’ina form of Moroni that we find extensively in Maya stone.

After showing the origins of the name Moroni in Mayan stones Dr. Robert Pate then offers an interesting but speculative theory on Moroni. Shortly after the death of his father Moroni states that he was alone and would write more if he had more room on the plates but he can’t because he has no ore to make more plates and can’t get more because he is alone. Moroni them went on to finish his father section of the Mormon (Mormon 8:5-Mormon 9:37) which was about 7 more pages followed by the book of Ether which is 31 pages and then does his own account (the book of Moroni) which is 13 pages. This total’s up to 51 more pages to complete what we know of as the Book of Mormon. We know that we have only a portion of the sealed plates, roughly one third of the plates (531 pages worth). This would mean that there were still roughly double that amount that were written to complete the other two thirds of the “golden plates” after Moroni finished his portion. We know that the sealed portion contain the writings of the brother of Jared which were written in a confounded language (ether 3:24) and the sealed interpretation thereof (Ether 4:5). This includes the vision of the brother of Jared of the history of the earth from the beginning to the end. So if we add it all up we have the 51 finish pages of the Book of Mormon plus the sealed portion roughly 1062 for a total of 1,113 pages written after Moroni says that he is out of ore and is alone and has basically run out of room on the plates. What changed to allow his situation to all of the sudden be able to add about 1,113 pages. How did he get more ore? It sounds like he was no longer all alone.

Dr. Pate professes that in order for Moroni to have stumbled into 50-pounds of gold that he would have stumbled into friendly Nephites but even more so he would have to have become the King of this group of people in order to obtain that amount. He states that he realized how this took place when he stumbled across “The Rulers of Tikal” (Michel 1989). He said, there was a section about Frog Sky Mah K’ina. That is our Moroni- Moroni born in Bountiful (according to another one of Dr. Pate's theories). And look at the years he was the ruler, 406 AD to about 426 AD. Moroni was still making entries into the Book of Mormon through about 421 AD.

He then goes on to state that according to the history shown in stele 31 at Tikal that Frog Sky Mah K’ina came to power in Long-Count date 8.18.10.0.0, which is 19 November, 406 AD. His predecessor was Ruler 9 which is Curl Nose and his successor was Ruler 11, Stormy Sky. Ruler 9 was the father of Ruler 11. Ruler 10, Mah K’ina, just shows up in between these two and somehow obtains the throne. This is accounted for because the Maya practiced primogeniture. The closes male descendant became king-(this dates back to Nephi. Dr. Pate supports his theory about kingship with Mormon Moroni’s father. Mormon states he was a direct descendent of Nephi (Mormon 8:13). He also states that it is very possible that Mormon was a king because the not only does he refer to the Nephites as “my people” but because the Lamanite king communicated directly with Mormon which is something he wouldn’t have done if Mormon were not the king (Mormon 6:2-3).

If this is the case, being a pure descendent of Nephi, Maya primogeniture would make Moroni the next king. He could walk into town and declare who he was showing the records the sword of Laban and his Nephite armor and this would allow him to obtain kingship especially since he and his father were known from Cumorah. I find this an interesting theory but I wanted to know what others thought of this idea. I guess I'm not familiar enough with Mayan history or especially the history of Tikal to see any red flags that might cause this theory to not hold any water.

[Avatar4321]

Anything is possible. But if Moroni was a king and a ruler and hadn't been alone as he said he was, why wouldnt the Nephite civilization continued?

Not only that, but it presumes that Moroni is the one who put together the sealed portion. Mormon could have had all that prepared before he took the plates.

And why would he need 50lbs of gold for a few more pages? The Gold plates all together with the sealed portions weren't said to be 50lbs. Not to mention the plates aren't said to be pure gold but to have the appearance of Gold.

It's an interesting theory but it has alot of assumptions and leaves a number of questions in my humble opinion.

[nosmelone]

Anything is possible. But if Moroni was a king and a ruler and hadn't been alone as he said he was, why wouldnt the Nephite civilization continued?

Not only that, but it presumes that Moroni is the one who put together the sealed portion. Mormon could have had all that prepared before he took the plates.

And why would he need 50lbs of gold for a few more pages? The Gold plates all together with the sealed portions weren't said to be 50lbs. Not to mention the plates aren't said to be pure gold but to have the appearance of Gold.

It's an interesting theory but it has alot of assumptions and leaves a number of questions in my humble opinion.

I agree it does leave a lot of unanswered questions, I believe the nephite civilization did continue to some degree I believe Moroni was alone as he said he was but after that as the theory purposed he eventually was not longer alone. When Moroni stated that the Lamanites are putting to death any Nephites that will not deny the Christ, I assume that there were many who probably would have denied the Savior in order to live considering they refused to repent in the day of Mormon they would have probably been more hardened in the days of Moroni. This would also account for the light skinned people pictured among the murals and Bonampak, Chichen Itza, and Teotihuacan. With that said your right there is know way of knowing if Moroni was the only one who wrote and compiled the sealed portion it could have been done by Mormon as well.

[Hashbaz]

He states that he realized how this took place when he stumbled across “The Rulers of Tikal” (Michel 1989). He said, there was a section about Frog Sky Mah K’ina. That is our Moroni- Moroni born in Bountiful (according to another one of Dr. Pate's theories). And look at the years he was the ruler, 406 AD to about 426 AD. Moroni was still making entries into the Book of Mormon through about 421 AD.

Michel's book is completely out of date and we have made leaps and bounds in decipherment since the 1980s. The name of "Frog Sky Mah K'ina" is actually read Siyaj Chan K'awiil (which translates to something like "K'awiil Born in the Sky"). Pate's book is absolutely fraught with egregious linguistic errors, and I urge anyone who owns it to burn it immediately.

[edited to change the name of the author of "The Rulers of Tikal" from Coe to Michel; I was just reading a book by Coe and had him on the brain]

[Mars]

Dr. Pate's PhD comes from Mechanical Engineering and Aerospace studies. He's a pretty dang good rocket scientist; I know many people who worked with him and for him through the years at ATK (Thiokol) out at the Promontory site.

But language skills... I think I agree with Hashbaz. I'm not a linguist myself, so take this for what it's worth: In his book, there are steps in his logic to relate, for example, Kaminaljuyu to Ammonihah, that he doesn't justify and gives no linguistic precedent. He seems to have taken cursory phonetic matches between Mesoamerican and Book of Mormon toponyms and asserted a link between the two.

[nosmelone]

@Hashbaz and Mars, thanks for the information, I felt that he was trying to explain it all as if it were common since which didn't make since to me. I took it with a grain of salt to begin with and I stick to Coe's stuff. Thanks

[Hashbaz]

Dr. Pate's PhD comes from Mechanical Engineering and Aerospace studies. He's a pretty dang good rocket scientist; I know many people who worked with him and for him through the years at ATK (Thiokol) out at the Promontory site.

But language skills... I think I agree with Hashbaz. I'm not a linguist myself, so take this for what it's worth: In his book, there are steps in his logic to relate, for example, Kaminaljuyu to Ammonihah, that he doesn't justify and gives no linguistic precedent. He seems to have taken cursory phonetic matches between Mesoamerican and Book of Mormon toponyms and asserted a link between the two.

To make matters worse, Kaminaljuyu is a modern name made up by archaeologists and it is not based in any way on what its ancient name may have been (we haven't a clue what is was called anciently). I won't name names, but I know of a reputable LDS Mesoamericanist (a professor at a major university with a PhD in Mesoamerican studies) that informed Pate of that fact before his book went to print, so Pate knew full well it wasn't a legitimate connection but he left that argument in there nonetheless. Raises some red flags about the rest of his work, doesn't it?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

so Pate knew full well it wasn't a legitimate connection but he left that argument in there nonetheless. Raises some red flags about the rest of his work, doesn't it?

That is indeed an issue.

[Mars]

@Hashbaz

That's really too bad.

He's really not a bad guy, just your typical engineer: stubborn in thinking he's right.

[Hashbaz]

He's really not a bad guy, just your typical engineer: stubborn in thinking he's right.

I have no doubts he's intelligent and he certainly means well, it's just a little frustrating to me that mechanical engineers (among others) think they are qualified to write books about linguistics or archaeology. John Sorenson shared similar frustrations many years ago in an article called "Instant Expertise on Book of Mormon Archaeology"

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/view/4910/4560

"But zeal does not improve bad scholarship". Still worth a read after all these years.

[mfbukowski]

I have no doubts he's intelligent and he certainly means well, it's just a little frustrating to me that mechanical engineers (among others) think they are qualified to write books about linguistics or archaeology. John Sorenson shared similar frustrations many years ago in an article called "Instant Expertise on Book of Mormon Archaeology"

https://ojs.lib.byu..../view/4910/4560

"But zeal does not improve bad scholarship". Still worth a read after all these years.

It's too bad non-philosophers try to continue to do "theology" as well.

[Mars]

I have no doubts he's intelligent and he certainly means well, it's just a little frustrating to me that mechanical engineers (among others) think they are qualified to write books about linguistics or archaeology. John Sorenson shared similar frustrations many years ago in an article called "Instant Expertise on Book of Mormon Archaeology"

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/view/4910/4560

"But zeal does not improve bad scholarship". Still worth a read after all these years.

Understandable.

[Anijen]

Pate's book is absolutely fraught with egregious linguistic errors, and I urge anyone who owns it to burn it immediately.

Every once in a while I will get a book that on the cover looks interesting but just after reading the first chapter I hated it. Not a scholarly piece of work, too much on stretched out linguistic connections (some are out there, were talking Pluto here). It was a struggle for me to finish it.

[Avatar4321]

I have no doubts he's intelligent and he certainly means well, it's just a little frustrating to me that mechanical engineers (among others) think they are qualified to write books about linguistics or archaeology. John Sorenson shared similar frustrations many years ago in an article called "Instant Expertise on Book of Mormon Archaeology"

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/view/4910/4560

"But zeal does not improve bad scholarship". Still worth a read after all these years.

I don't see why an engineer couldn't be qualified to write a book on linguistics or archaelogy if they are knowledgible in the area and do the proper research to support. I'm not one who things degrees are that important as long as the knowledge is sound. Doesn't sound like the knowledge is sound here.

[Anijen]

I don't see why an engineer couldn't be qualified to write a book on linguistics or archaelogy if they are knowledgible in the area and do the proper research to support. I'm not one who things degrees are that important as long as the knowledge is sound. Doesn't sound like the knowledge is sound here.

You are absolutely correct. There are many experts who have specialization in one area but also are expert in others. In fact it is probably more common than not. It is the nature of scholars, most I know, love to learn and is what led them to acquiring their PhDs etc. Many of these experts go into fields such as teaching because they like to pass their knowledge to others and teaching is a noble occupation anyway. Dr. Pate is not the exception he is a brilliant man and his passion for the Book of Mormon is evident. He firmly believed what he wrote, and like Dr. Hashbaz has said great improvements in reading the Mayan glyphs have been made since Pate's book. His [Pate] knowledge is sound if he were speaking of things that relate to engineering. It is my opinion his love and passion for the Book of Mormon had overruled certain archaeological methods and relied on cloudy linguistic connections to support his hypothesis. Now if he stuck to the theory of his book in light of greater knowledge we have today concerning Tikal I might change my mind about his motives.

[mfbukowski]

@Hashbaz

That's really too bad.

He's really not a bad guy, just your typical engineer: stubborn in thinking he's right.

I have many business clients who are engineers- they are often brilliant individuals and brilliant individuals tend to think there is nothing they do not know.

I stopped off for breakfast at a fast-food restaurant, and was sitting there reading, and I noticed a guy in his 50's in a short-sleeved checkered starched sport shirt, with multiple pens in his shirt pocket, with a notebook open in front of him containing lists of numbers. He got up to get another cup of coffee, and on the way back to his table for some reason, he stopped and started chatting with me- asked what I was reading etc. Since it was philosophy, we got into religion quite quickly, and he started telling me in very confident terms about how he felt about the Bible and other religious issues- while I was silent about all of that- it was kind of a monologue on his part, and I wanted to get back to my book.

Since I study others' doctrine a lot, I recognized immediately what church he was a member of.

Finally, I said "You know, I know somethings about you- you are an engineer that works at ( a large nearby aerospace company which employs many engineers) and are a member of the Unification Church, but right now I am in the middle of my book, but I would like to talk to you later about religion. Could I have your email so we can get in touch?"

He looked at me like I was some kind of High Priest Vatican Warlock Assassin, quietly wrote down his email, sat down and didn't say another word!

[BCSpace]

If this is the case, being a pure descendent of Nephi, Maya primogeniture would make Moroni the next king. He could walk into town and declare who he was showing the records the sword of Laban and his Nephite armor and this would allow him to obtain kingship especially since he and his father were known from Cumorah. I find this an interesting theory but I wanted to know what others thought of this idea. I guess I'm not familiar enough with Mayan history or especially the history of Tikal to see any red flags that might cause this theory to not hold any water.

In this case, how did the plates get to New York, to the second "Cumorah"?

It's too bad non-philosophers try to continue to do "theology" as well.

I can understand Mechanical Engineeering vs. Linguistic expertise, but Philosophy? That is not a very exclusive realm and by definition there can be no experts in it, just the history of it.

[Mars]

I have many business clients who are engineers- they are often brilliant individuals and brilliant individuals tend to think there is nothing they do not know.

The problem is that far too often it's true!