Constitution Hanging By A Thread...

[bookofmormontruth]

I think the key that everybody misses, as far as I have been able to see, is that in the Parley P. Pratt account and in the Knowlton-Coray account, the point is that the nation would be on the brink of an overthrow of the government, not that the "Constitution" itself would be in jeopardy. By the time the nation and government would be in danger of an overthrow, the constitution would be long abandoned and would be given lip service. In this sense, the constitution hanging by a thread prophecies aren't so much about the constitution as much as they are about using the "constitution" as a symbol of our nation in general, and that the nation and government would be in danger of an overthrow, and would be ready to fall into other hands. THIS is what the elders of Israel would step forth to prevent, either militarily or otherwise. This is really what we need to be on the lookout for, not so much the incremental whittling away of the constitution. We need to be ready to step forward to save the government when it is in danger of an overthrow. At that time, it seems that an army of all the elders from all over the whole planet will assemble to come to the US to fight and redeem the country.

Knowlton-Coray version:

"We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace until the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch-tower, and then shall they begin to say within themselves, “What need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace?” Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad. When the seed of these Twelve Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth [D&C 101:10-12,43-62]. Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground. And when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff upon which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.

Then shall the Lord say, Go tell all my servants who are the strength of mine house, my young men and middle aged &c, come to the Land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord. Then the Kings and Queens shall come. Then the rulers of the Earth shall come then shall [all] saints come. Yea, the Foreign saints shall come to fight for the land of my vineyard. For in this thing shall be their safety, and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction."

James Burgess version:

"In the month of May 1843 several miles east of Nauvoo the Nauvoo Legion was on parade and review, at the close of which Joseph Smith made some remarks upon our condition as a people, and upon our future prospects, contrasting our present condition with our past trials and persecutions by the hands of our enemies. Also upon the Constitution and Government of the United States, stating that the time would come when the Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands, but this people the Latter day Saints will step forth and save it . . ."

Parley P. Pratt version:

"The government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of blood and cannot stand as it is now is, but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair! Then the servants go to the nations of the earth, and gather the strength of the Lord’s house! A mighty army! And this is the redemption of Zion when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory![D&C 101:43]"

As you can see, in more than one version, the parable of the 12 olive trees in D&C 101 is brought up, and is intimately connected with the Constitution Hanging by a Thread, and if you carefully read this parable, it has all the elements of the idea that a thief would come in the night unexpectedly to break down the defenses and try to destroy the nation because those in control of the country had fallen asleep and had forgotten about the country's defenses, and would more concerned about dismantling the defenses in favor of economic concerns. This is what we need to look out for.

That is the question I asked.

How do the Elders and the Church save the Country and Constitution? You seem to suggest it is militarily. What is the "otherwise"?

[thesometimesaint]

Without getting too political. What is being referred to as is the White Horse prophecy. Which has not been accepted by the Church for a variety of reasons.

Of necessity today's Constitution is not the same as when penned.

[LeSellers]

Of necessity today's Constitution is not the same as when penned.

One is forced to ask, by what necessity?

One is further led to query: Since the Constitution includes a legitimate means of amendment, why are these changes not included in its text? We have had 27 occasions when, of necessity" (at least in some people's opinions) it was amended properly. The mechanism of changing is hardly a mystery.

Lehi

[Nofear]

Without getting too political. What is being referred to as is the White Horse prophecy. Which has not been accepted by the Church for a variety of reasons.

Of necessity today's Constitution is not the same as when penned.

The Constitution hanging by a thread is used by the so-called and discredited White Horse Prophecy but has existence independent of it (see Cinepro's post). It is erroneous to conflate the two.

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

All I said was that the Constitution has been changed. I agree that they foresaw the need for change, even if they did not foresee the individual changes.

The simple expedient of the Founders NOT to put everything in the Constitution, and that whatever their own capacities were it is unlikely that they foresaw many of the changes that would take place.

[Jeff K.]

Where is Harry Sheldon when you need him?

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

?

[Nofear]

Where is Harry Sheldon when you need him?

Hari Seldon?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

We are all aware of the many references in the past about our constitution hanging by a thread.

It has been “hanging for some time now”, but now there are those pulling on the thread; Hard!

[frankenstein]

In my opinion The Constitution started loosing its meaning and American started down hill with the Alien and Sedition Acts, (possibly the "whiskey wars"), the next big downfall came with Andrew Jackson who sent the Natives on a death march to the south western area of what is not the United States.

My opinion has nothing to do with the "white horse prophecy" as my opinion on what has and is happening in the United States was formed long before I ever heard of the White Horse prophecy, and I can honestly say that I am confident I first learned of the white horse prophecy on the comment section of the SLTRIB, which I started visiting and reading a few years ago.

[Rob Osborn]

So far, I have not yet read anything that states where, why or how our constitution- it being a leagal binding document, is hanging by a thread. It really doesn't surprise me either. Ezra Taft Benson was perhaps the last prophet to speak on the matter specifically and that was over 25 years ago. My son, in his generation, has had no prophet of God speak in his day pertaining any language such as "constitution hanging by a thread". I also find it interesting that a lot of people associate "constitution hanging by a thread" coming solely from the "white horse prophecy", a prophecy that the church itself has publicly and officially stated is not recognized by them.

The constitution has been changed many times from it's original form. But, it is still within the principled bounds that our forfathers had in their good hearts and intentions. Just as we can and have added scripture to ourscriptures from the past, so to it is with the constitution. Of note is that my country and my freedom, as a citizen, is still upheld by the legal document we call the "constitution". If this document were hanging by a thread we would obviously know it. Why? Because we wouldn't have the freedom we have now. Many can cite this or that case showing the deprivation or muting of some individuals rights or abuse of judicial powers, but that has been the case all along. Those matters tend to correct themselves because of the constitutional system we do have and it being strong, not weak, or hanging by some thread. I am led to believe that because God raised up the men that penned the document and that God has set it as an ensign for all nations and for freedom itself, I would highly doubt it could be so easily placed in peril. It begs the question-

Are the majority of men and women who pass laws and uphold the laws of the land in this country corrupt, or are they in fact God fearing and basically good people? Spoken of in the BoM, the greatest threat of our freedom comes from crooked lawyers and judges. So, for the constitution to truly hang by a thread, to me, it means that it would mean the vast majority of our lawyers and judges, senators, governors, etc. would have to be evil and corrupt because the constitution itself, as a legal document, is what binds our freedom.

[frankenstein]

a piece of paper in not enforcable if the party do not enforce it, hence Andrew Jackson death march of the Natives Americans from Georgia.

how many states has permitted legal medical marijuana despite marijauna being illegal by the the Fed.

Texas legislatures engaged in unauthorized ghost voting, many of these unauthorized vote were done by christian lawyers who have usurped the will of the people and the Republican form of government, so you have a point there about lawyers.

Currently the Attnry Gen. of Arizona has contrived a plan to supvert the will of the people, the AG is going to file a suit he has not intention of defending but is filing only to subvert the will of the people.

And lets take all the claims of against Ca. elected official choosing not to defend a law.

also consider the signature things that the presidents have been doing.

[Jeff K.]

Hari Seldon?

Darn my phonetic proclivities.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1986

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpbiuXhcFP8

Love that Ezra T...so right, long before it happened. I think they call that a Prophet.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't think our country has followed the Constitution for decades.

Especially when it comes to the “War powers Act”.

[SkepticTheist]

I don't mean to say that I know for sure if this is literally a military action or if there is some figurative or symbolic meaning here that I don't understand. So I left that open for the possibility that there was something that I don't understand and that I could be misinterpreting that, even though from a surface reading it would seem that it is some military action.

That is the question I asked.

How do the Elders and the Church save the Country and Constitution? You seem to suggest it is militarily. What is the "otherwise"?

[SkepticTheist]

There are numerous other sources outside the white horse prophecy that contain the Constitution Hanging by a Thread prophecy, so there is no need for us to use the White Horse Prophecy as a source for it. And just because the White Horse prophecy said something about it means nothing for the other sources that we can turn to for the prophecy.

I don't believe that Joseph Smith's statement on this matter has been accepted as revelation by the Church. If this quote from the White Horse Prophecy, then it has been stated numerous times by the Church as not being revelation.

[bookofmormontruth]

So far, I have not yet read anything that states where, why or how our constitution- it being a leagal binding document, is hanging by a thread. It really doesn't surprise me either. Ezra Taft Benson was perhaps the last prophet to speak on the matter specifically and that was over 25 years ago. My son, in his generation, has had no prophet of God speak in his day pertaining any language such as "constitution hanging by a thread". I also find it interesting that a lot of people associate "constitution hanging by a thread" coming solely from the "white horse prophecy", a prophecy that the church itself has publicly and officially stated is not recognized by them.

The constitution has been changed many times from it's original form. But, it is still within the principled bounds that our forfathers had in their good hearts and intentions. Just as we can and have added scripture to ourscriptures from the past, so to it is with the constitution. Of note is that my country and my freedom, as a citizen, is still upheld by the legal document we call the "constitution". If this document were hanging by a thread we would obviously know it. Why? Because we wouldn't have the freedom we have now. Many can cite this or that case showing the deprivation or muting of some individuals rights or abuse of judicial powers, but that has been the case all along. Those matters tend to correct themselves because of the constitutional system we do have and it being strong, not weak, or hanging by some thread. I am led to believe that because God raised up the men that penned the document and that God has set it as an ensign for all nations and for freedom itself, I would highly doubt it could be so easily placed in peril. It begs the question-

Are the majority of men and women who pass laws and uphold the laws of the land in this country corrupt, or are they in fact God fearing and basically good people? Spoken of in the BoM, the greatest threat of our freedom comes from crooked lawyers and judges. So, for the constitution to truly hang by a thread, to me, it means that it would mean the vast majority of our lawyers and judges, senators, governors, etc. would have to be evil and corrupt because the constitution itself, as a legal document, is what binds our freedom.

I appreciate your thoughts and I hear what you are saying in regards that we would definitely know if the "constitution was hanging by a thread", we wouldn't have our freedoms.

I feel it is critically important to recognize today that the constitution, our government, our nation and our freedoms are in perilous times. To think otherwise, you would have to reject the specific warnings and prophecies made by a Prophet of the Lord, President Benson (whose past words are just as relevant for us today) and countless others. I hope you don't feel the same way about the how the family unit is constantly under attack.

We need to realize that we can't wait for that day when our freedoms are completely left desolate. We need to realize that just like the Book of Mormon, we have wicked and corrupt men who are in every part of our society. These precious freedoms are not taken away over night, but are slowly eroded away.

Maybe our current Prophets have not specifically mentioned the phrase "constitution hanging by a thread", maybe they have - I haven't thoroughly researched it. Regardless of the phrase, our Prophets in the very same light - continually warn of of the threats from those wicked and corrupt men who are inspired from satan who is the anti-thesis of freedom. We can heed the warnings of today and of the past made by the Servants of the Lord or wake up on a future date and wonder how our freedoms suddenly disappeared or how our family has completely decayed. For the Gospel and its Servants are the true Ensign to all nations, not the Constitution.

Elder Oaks: (2-4-2011 / can't get anymore current than that). Talks how the protections of our freedoms and our first Amendment Right is slowly being impinged by laws and official actions from those wicked and corrupt men.

[bookofmormontruth]

I don't mean to say that I know for sure if this is literally a military action or if there is some figurative or symbolic meaning here that I don't understand. So I left that open for the possibility that there was something that I don't understand and that I could be misinterpreting that, even though from a surface reading it would seem that it is some military action.

I agree.

I believe there will be other free-men (freedom lovers) in our Nation who will fight for our Country, military speaking. The Priesthood on the other hand doesn't need military power.

[frankenstein]

"Wyden says he “can’t answer” any specific questions about how the government thinks it can use the Patriot Act. That would risk revealing classified information — something Wyden considers an abuse of government secrecy. He believes the techniques themselves should stay secret, but the rationale for using their legal use under Patriot ought to be disclosed. “I draw a sharp line between the secret interpretation of the law, which I believe is a growing problem, and protecting operations and methods in the intelligence area, which have to be protected,”"

so much for freedoms and privacy.

[zerinus]

I recollect having heard or read somewhere that President Harold B Lee disapproved of Ezra Taft Bensons's rhetoric; and when President Benson tried to justify it by commenting that we needed to "save the Constitution from destruction," President Lee replied by saying (as best I can recall) that, "It is already destroyed . . . we will save the principles". Perhaps somebody can remember the source, and tell us more about it.

[Nemesis]

Automatic generated message

This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: It only takes a few to turn this thread to be to political.

Kind regards,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff