The Uselessness Of Personal Revelation

[MorningStar]

When God helps us even with trivial things, it helps increase our trust in Him and can help us better withstand major trials, whatever the outcome may be. As a little girl, I prayed and God helped me through a rather minor experience, which encouraged me to pray when I went through horrible trials.

[mfbukowski]

I don't think most religious people get bogged down in the logistical complexities you describe.

Rather, they pray about something, feel good about something, and incorporate it into their belief system because it works and makes them happy.

Aside from a few things like the divinity of Jesus and the reality of the Restoration, what sort of 'personal revelations' are there to be had?

I agree that revelation is "useful" precisely for the reasons you have stated. Religion is not about learning the truth of facts- it is about having a sense of peace and purpose in one's life.

Yes, one might choose many paths and still have peace about them; what else is new?

In my opinion, God confirms the "best" course for each individual, but we all end up in the "best place" eventually. That is what I believe is the central truth of the Mormon notion of the Redemption of the Dead; it can be taken literally or not- but the central concept is that our progression continues in the afterlife, and eventually we all will have learned enough to end up on the same correct course because we will all eventually find that it is the only one which ultimately "works" to bring all of mankind to their greatest potential and give them the best possible sense of peace and fulfillment.

So even those who make "wrong choices" thinking it will lead them to what they want, when it does not, they learn and change course; their errors may kill them, but at least they will have learned that their course was an error. So given an eternity, I think we will all end up on the same course after going down many wrong dead ends- and it is conceivable that God would "confirm" even the wrong choices if it teaches us what we need to learn so that we don't make the same mistake again.

That's about all I think I will say on this thread. I think you will understand my remarks, whereas others will not.

[inquiringmind]

and it is conceivable that God would "confirm" even the wrong choices if it teaches us what we need to learn so that we don't make the same mistake again.

Something about that bothers me.

Wouldn't confirming a wrong choice (even if it were so we might learn something from it) be kinda like lying?

[bookofmormontruth]

I don't. I'm granting them for the sake of argument.

"Why it doesn't matter but faith does"

Then what do you have "faith" in?

The Uselessness Of Personal Revelation

[mfbukowski]

Something about that bothers me.

Wouldn't confirming a wrong choice (even if it were so we might learn something from it) be kinda like lying?

No, it is the best course available to you at the time. If you are a drunk on skid row, and God confirms that the Salvation Army is the "best" course for you (at the time) because it leads you to Christ- it is hardly a lie.

But I appreciate you bringing that up- the key is the "best course at the time" to further your progression. There was one here who told a story about a friend of his who was LDS and felt strongly prompted that he should join the Presbyterian church. He did. He climbed quickly into the hierarchy and was instrumental in several conferences which resulted in greater Christian Unity.

Much later in life, he again felt a strong impression to re-join the LDS church, which he did.

He was certain that each choice was a revelation from the Lord, and that for that period he was "supposed" to be in the Presbyterian Church.

True or not, I think the story is very instructive and teaches a true principle.

[bookofmormontruth]

I agree that revelation is "useful" precisely for the reasons you have stated. Religion is not about learning the truth of facts- it is about having a sense of peace and purpose in one's life.

Yes, one might choose many paths and still have peace about them; what else is new?

In my opinion, God confirms the "best" course for each individual, but we all end up in the "best place" eventually. That is what I believe is the central truth of the Mormon notion of the Redemption of the Dead; it can be taken literally or not- but the central concept is that our progression continues in the afterlife, and eventually we all will have learned enough to end up on the same correct course because we will all eventually find that it is the only one which ultimately "works" to bring all of mankind to their greatest potential and give them the best possible sense of peace and fulfillment.

So even those who make "wrong choices" thinking it will lead them to what they want, when it does not, they learn and change course; their errors may kill them, but at least they will have learned that their course was an error. So given an eternity, I think we will all end up on the same course after going down many wrong dead ends- and it is conceivable that God would "confirm" even the wrong choices if it teaches us what we need to learn so that we don't make the same mistake again.

That's about all I think I will say on this thread. I think you will understand my remarks, whereas others will not.

Sure, we all end up in the "best place" for us eventually. Some will just need an "eternity" to get there.

[HiJolly]

mfbukowski: "and it is conceivable that God would "confirm" even the wrong choices if it teaches us what we need to learn so that we don't make the same mistake again."

Something about that bothers me.

Wouldn't confirming a wrong choice (even if it were so we might learn something from it) be kinda like lying?

God does what works. Example.

I'm 8 years old. I am filled with a profound, Godly CERTAINTY that the Church is ALL true. Every bit of it. No error or even nuance. It's all just flat-out true, from the Bible & Book of Mormon, to the General Conference talks, to what my primary teachers just said.

It wasn't literally 'true', but it helped me all through my youth to not make a lot of stupid choices and to trust my Church leaders in whatever they said. I'd say on a pragmatic level, it worked.

And then when I went to University and learned about physics (global flood), biology (evolution), and so forth, I was able with the help of the Spirit to sort it all out. I'm ok with that. I resent nothing. I was happy then, and I'm happy now.

HJ

[inquiringmind]

No, it is the best course available to you at the time. If you are a drunk on skid row, and God confirms that the Salvation Army is the "best" course for you (at the time) because it leads you to Christ- it is hardly a lie.

But I appreciate you bringing that up- the key is the "best course at the time" to further your progression. There was one here who told a story about a friend of his who was LDS and felt strongly prompted that he should join the Presbyterian church. He did. He climbed quickly into the hierarchy and was instrumental in several conferences which resulted in greater Christian Unity.

Much later in life, he again felt a strong impression to re-join the LDS church, which he did.

He was certain that each choice was a revelation from the Lord, and that for that period he was "supposed" to be in the Presbyterian Church.

True or not, I think the story is very instructive and teaches a true principle.

Thank you.

[Mars]

If you are a drunk on skid row

I'm listening...

[Deborah]

I'm not sure how to delve into this. Suffice it to say that I believe the quiet, reverent atmosphere the LDS attempt to impart as a catalyst to spiritual experience is due to the fact that it's possible to be swept up emotionally....

I agree with this. Joseph Smith went to the grove where it was quiet and away from everyone. We are told to go into our closets to pray (figuratively speaking). As 1 Kings 19 says:

11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

[Deborah]

When God helps us even with trivial things, it helps increase our trust in Him and can help us better withstand major trials, whatever the outcome may be.

Part of the "tender mercies" Elder Bednar spoke of. It's funny but it is those answers to prayers over those little, trivial things that is the glue that holds me together when the big things hit. I think "If God cared enough to answer my little insignificant prayer then he will certainly help me get through the weightier matter." And sometimes the weightier matter is where we must pass, sometimes on our own, to become refined and to learn the lessons we need to.

[Libs]

No, it is the best course available to you at the time. If you are a drunk on skid row, and God confirms that the Salvation Army is the "best" course for you (at the time) because it leads you to Christ- it is hardly a lie.

But I appreciate you bringing that up- the key is the "best course at the time" to further your progression. There was one here who told a story about a friend of his who was LDS and felt strongly prompted that he should join the Presbyterian church. He did. He climbed quickly into the hierarchy and was instrumental in several conferences which resulted in greater Christian Unity.

Much later in life, he again felt a strong impression to re-join the LDS church, which he did.

He was certain that each choice was a revelation from the Lord, and that for that period he was "supposed" to be in the Presbyterian Church.

True or not, I think the story is very instructive and teaches a true principle.

Yes, I think this is a true principle, as well. I've mentioned, before, that I had a difficult time rectifying spiritual experiences I had, while in the LDS Church, with the idea that Joseph Smith may not have been a prophet. But, this principle is exactly what I came to...a personal revelation of sorts. God may use whatever is at hand, to draw us to him.

[Libs]

Part of the "tender mercies" Elder Bednar spoke of. It's funny but it is those answers to prayers over those little, trivial things that is the glue that holds me together when the big things hit. I think "If God cared enough to answer my little insignificant prayer then he will certainly help me get through the weightier matter." And sometimes the weightier matter is where we must pass, sometimes on our own, to become refined and to learn the lessons we need to.

Yes...that was well said.

[Libs]

We know that Satan can deceive us into thinking something was a revelation when it wasn't.

We know God will not command us about everything we have to do.

We know we will make mistakes.

If we receive a revelation and it clearly goes against the scriptures then it isn't from God.

Not everything is in the scriptures (what job you should take, what to make legal or illegal, etc).

Now, let's say you pray and you think you received a revelation. If it clearly goes against the scriptures then you know it isn't from God. However, you could be mistaken when interpreting the scriptures or when interpreting the revelation because of Satan. Satan may be the one deceiving you into thinking it is a revelation from God when it isn't in the first place. You know also that it could be just your mind since God will NOT admonish you in everything you have to do or should do. It seems that at the end of the day you have no sure source but you have to trust in the Lord (have faith).

Then, of what use is "personal revelation"?

I don't believe there is 100% assurance that specific "revelation" is from God. Perhaps, we will only know, if it works to the good. If it helps to edify or comfort or helps us become more Christ-like, more faithful and less fearful...I think we might assume it is from God.

[Mudcat]

We know that Satan can deceive us into thinking something was a revelation when it wasn't.

This seems to be the impetus or focal point of the OP.

I don't quite understand how this statement actually works.

I don't see any precedent.. at least from my Evangelical perspective, to agree that Satan can present spiritual revelations that could be seen as coming from the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:1 seems to assert that spirits are testable for truth. Though, I think the verse is better interpreted as, spirit = false prophet. At the very least, 4:1 implies that such spiritual interaction is via false prophets.

The point being, I don't think there is a precedent that Satan has the power to duplicate the Holy Spirit for his benefit.

[elguanteloko]

This seems to be the impetus or focal point of the OP.

I don't quite understand how this statement actually works.

I don't see any precedent.. at least from my Evangelical perspective, to agree that Satan can present spiritual revelations that could be seen as coming from the Holy Spirit.

Many people claim to see miracles in their lives from all religions. Do you have better reason than Muslims to believe the personal information you receive is better than theirs?

1 John 4:1 seems to assert that spirits are testable for truth. Though, I think the verse is better interpreted as, spirit = false prophet. At the very least, 4:1 implies that such spiritual interaction is via false prophets.

The point being, I don't think there is a precedent that Satan has the power to duplicate the Holy Spirit for his benefit.

Exodus 7: 10-12

Revelations 13:14, 16:14, 19:20

[elguanteloko]

I don't believe there is 100% assurance that specific "revelation" is from God. Perhaps, we will only know, if it works to the good. If it helps to edify or comfort or helps us become more Christ-like, more faithful and less fearful...I think we might assume it is from God.

How would you distinguish between a good idea that came from you and a good idea that did come from God?

[volgadon]

I find it disturbing that people think the Spirit told them where their car keys were when they prayed but God doesn't do the same with the prayers of starving children or of mothers asking God to deliver their children from cancer.

Some people are guided to find their car keys some of the time. Some people do find food, or a job, or have a loved one cured from cancer some of the time. None of these examples are true for all people all of the time.

[Sky]

Although the following scriptures in The Book of Mormon do not address personal revelation specifically, they go a long way in helping to answer the questions posed in the OP.

Moroni 7:12-19

Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

[rodheadlee]

Let's take your example, then. Taking into account the information at the beginning of the OP, of what use is personal revelation?

I hate to tell you, but, you don't have a clue. It was revealed to me that my wife was terminally ill. It was a wide awake, driving down the freeway, revelation. Vivid, like a dream but I was not sleeping, I was doing 70mph. By the time I got to work I was crying like a baby. It was so real, I was at my wife's funeral.

I freaked out for a week or so, then I started pushing to get medical tests. We thought she had pancrease cancer, we thought she had liver disease, turns out she had colon cancer. The words of the doctors were "It's a miracle we caught this so soon. It's stage 1 cancer she doesn't need chemo therapy."

Personal revelation saved my wife's life, for how long I don't know, but I hope it's long enough to get sealed.

[Mudcat]

Many people claim to see miracles in their lives from all religions. Do you have better reason than Muslims to believe the personal information you receive is better than theirs?

This question is irrelevant to the topic. Your shift in ground to finger pointing at non-Christians displays the actual weakness of your position. Why would the suggestion that Satan deceiving Muslims in the guise of the Holy Spirit/Spirit of God be the most valid?

I have no plans to entertain the divergence in topic, until you can actually establish you have good grounds for you OP.

Exodus 7: 10-12

This is about changing sticks to snakes, miracles of a sort.

Irrelevant to the notion of Satan giving revelation as the HS does.

Revelations 13:14,

Same here more miracle stuff.

16:14,

and here

19:20

here as well.

So far, your OP is without any good footing. A positive claim like the one you stated in your OP, "We know that Satan can deceive us into thinking something was a revelation when it wasn't." Is misguided, as I see it.

I can't associate a "We know" to this in any manner. Your background evidence doesn't pertain to the subject matter. If this is something that you know, it has nothing to do with the evidence you have provided.

edit add -

When you say,"We know that Satan can deceive us into thinking something was a revelation when it wasn't."

I would ask, do you actually affirm the existence of Satan? That is what you have have asserted in your statement of "We know". But given past discourse, could you affirm that you actually have at least belief, if not direct knowledge, that Satan is real?

[citizen28]

Then, of what use is "personal revelation"?

Personal revelation is the only way for the saints to know whether or not something the prophet tells them to do is actually a command from God.

[Mars]

citizen28: There are plenty of Saints on here who are quite capable of speaking for themselves. Some of us already did, in this thread.

[jo1952]

I agree that revelation is "useful" precisely for the reasons you have stated. Religion is not about learning the truth of facts- it is about having a sense of peace and purpose in one's life.

Yes, one might choose many paths and still have peace about them; what else is new?

In my opinion, God confirms the "best" course for each individual, but we all end up in the "best place" eventually. That is what I believe is the central truth of the Mormon notion of the Redemption of the Dead; it can be taken literally or not- but the central concept is that our progression continues in the afterlife, and eventually we all will have learned enough to end up on the same correct course because we will all eventually find that it is the only one which ultimately "works" to bring all of mankind to their greatest potential and give them the best possible sense of peace and fulfillment.

So even those who make "wrong choices" thinking it will lead them to what they want, when it does not, they learn and change course; their errors may kill them, but at least they will have learned that their course was an error. So given an eternity, I think we will all end up on the same course after going down many wrong dead ends- and it is conceivable that God would "confirm" even the wrong choices if it teaches us what we need to learn so that we don't make the same mistake again.

That's about all I think I will say on this thread. I think you will understand my remarks, whereas others will not.

An awesome post!!! Thank you!!!!

jo

[J Green]

Appreciate Mudcat's responses. Good man.

Guante, would Lehi's personal revelation about the tree of life be of any use to him and his family? What about Abraham's? Jacob's personal revelation (Gen 28)?