The Priesthood

[Maidservant]

CFR, to both parts

I have heard some real doozies in my time but I must say this is a new one.

Just saw this now. Sure, I will work to try to find some support for this, or retract it.

Not that I ever say or post anything that could remotely be considered doctrine nor am I asserting that here.

[Maidservant]

I actually have been learning a lot of stuff, thanks for giving me the opportunity. However, rather than giving you a whole book, I selected the most clear reference, which I think is going to have to be D & C 88. Let me also start by saying that the priesthood is the Order of the Son of God so all men are types of the Savior IN cleansing the world of its sin, as Christ did and does with his atonement. Women also have the opportunity to represent the Savior, of course, but men are types in the same sense that male bullocks were used in the law of Moses (and similar) as types of the Savior. Priesthood itself is a type for the atonement. Again, not that there aren't atonement types in the fact of the female gender or the work of women (it all works together). This would be another thread, but I've always thought that the work Jesus did was quite female, feminine and mother-y in many ways.

D & C 88 does not prove what I stated. I don't think there is anything in here that explicitly describes male-ness, for example. But perhaps it will show I didn't grab it out of thin air. The entire passage reeks of Priesthood to me, although not necessarily just male Priesthood.

v2 "the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world" Here we realize that the discussion in 88 is going to be a discussion with a ritual, symbolic, reality bent, perhaps for those listeners seeking sanctification beyond their first baptismal repentance

v 5-6 "Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son--he that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth" Here we have a reference to the church of the Firstborn, and a description of a work that is to be done by those populating the order of the Firstborn (i.e. descending, ascending)

v 16-20 "And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul. And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it. Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory; For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father; That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified." Here we understand that the celestial world will develop in real time on the earth (not by going anywhere). It will develop through the sanctification of all those that live on the earth, the poor and the meek. Lots in the verse, can't refer to it all. The unrighteous are an us, not a them . . . we are unrighteous until we are sanctified (redeemed).

v68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will. Here the process of sanctification is connected to (equated with???) the unveiling of God.

v74-75 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean; That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will. Now that Christ has explained the nature of the universe and the grand redemptive work and the earth's place in it, he now gets a little more specific as to what is happening now for this earth, and that is that we are in the middle of the labor of sanctification . . . for ourselves and for seeking out any in the earth who will join us. The idea of being spotted with the world, or with blood, is not only for all the many sins and bloodshed, but it also refers back to Christ's shed blood; and Christ's shed blood also mirrors back to all the innocent blood that gets shed in this earth. And unless we (and/or the Priesthood) DELIBERATELY becomes clean/sanctified through our covenants (priesthood), then we remain unclean, or spotted with blood, as are all in "this generation" unless they also are redeemed (small children and any who also are being sanctified through covenants). Our final cleanliness/sanctification is only possible by charity, saving others.

v81-85 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads. . . Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come; That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation. More hints or explanation of the labor. Implying that a man that has been warned has his own sins upon his head, yet upon whose head are the sins of those who are un-warned in the world? 81-85 shows the work of gathering, priesthood, redemption, charity, and of cleansing our garments from blood.

v138-139 And ye shall not receive any among you into this school save he is clean from the blood of this generation; And he shall be received by the ordinance of the washing of feet, for unto this end was the ordinance of the washing of feet instituted. This is talking about the school of the Prophets specifically, not sure in what way if any it can be translated to any other situation. However, certainly even though there is no school of the Prophets today, the entire section 88 is not null in its charges and understandings.

[Calm]

The phrase is used in an Ensign article about Visiting Teaching so it would appear that at least Pres. Kimball felt that women were liable in this fashion as well (using cached version because lds.org is down)):

http://webcache.goog...=www.google.com

You have a responsibility. You have been called of God, through the properly constituted authorities. You just can’t go to homes if you have “blood” on your skirts. It says in the eighty-eighth section, “Purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean;

“That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood [and sins] of this wicked generation.” (D&C 88:74–75.)

D&C Institute manual speaks of all members being liable:

Since the Lord has identified the Church as the warning agent, every member is responsible to be a missionary to lift up the trump and sound the warning so that (1) the wicked will be left without excuse; (2) the members will free themselves from the blood and sins of this generation; and (3) the righteous will be gathered from all nations to enjoy the blessings of salvation and escape the coming judgments.

http://institute.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-200-a-c-a.asp

[Maidservant]

The phrase is used in an Ensign article about Visiting Teaching so it would appear that at least Pres. Kimball felt that women were liable in this fashion as well (using cached version because lds.org is down)):

http://webcache.goog...=www.google.com

D&C Institute manual speaks of all members being liable:

http://institute.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-200-a-c-a.asp

wow, cool!

[Thinking]

Women don't need the priesthood. Men need the priesthood to rise to the level of women!

[Calm]

Women don't need the priesthood. Men need the priesthood to rise to the level of women!

[erichard]

What's the official reason why women can't hold the priesthood? (providing there is one)

If you found out that woman can hold the Priesthood, but they are not called to the same offices as men, would that be a good answer to your question?

Richard

[aspire]

If you found out that woman can hold the Priesthood, but they are not called to the same offices as men, would that be a good answer to your question?

Richard

Actually, yes. I have no desire to be a Relief Society, or Primary President, so why would want to be a Bishop. But I would very much like to bless my children and others with husband or other Priesthood holders, be able to act as a witness at a baptism, or a temple sealing. How about dedicating my home in times of need. There are a number of thing that Priesthood holders can do that have nothing to do with administrative duties.

Of course maybe I miss understand the Priesthood.

[erichard]

Actually, yes. I have no desire to be a Relief Society, or Primary President, so why would want to be a Bishop. But I would very much like to bless my children and others with husband or other Priesthood holders, be able to act as a witness at a baptism, or a temple sealing. How about dedicating my home in times of need. There are a number of thing that Priesthood holders can do that have nothing to do with administrative duties.

Of course maybe I miss understand the Priesthood.

I see.

Well, when you have men perform a blessing of your child, they are doing it in your service.

Kinda like when you get your tires fixed at a tire shop, somebody does it for you because it is not your line of work to do it. Men and women have different, but both essential, callings in life, and it causes confusion if they are put in competition with each other.

True Priesthood is "power" and a woman has access to all that power just as much as a man. It may not be a woman's "line of work" to be the ones who perform ordinances, conduct meetings, and other work given to men, but all the blessings of that work is available for her.

In my understanding, when a woman marries a man who holds the Priesthood, in a very real sense she holds it also. But she will not be given a man's office in that priesthood.

But I can see that you would want to be in the circle when your child was blessed. I will ask an older friend of mine, who is very spiritual, what he thinks of the idea.

In the Temple women are given the promise of becoming Priestesses. As the Nation of Zion comes forth after the fall of the United States and the cleansing of the church, it may very well be that women are given "Priesthood" offices exclusive for women. AoF 9 says many great things are yet to be revealed.

Richard

[frankenstein]

The phrase is used in an Ensign article about Visiting Teaching so it would appear that at least Pres. Kimball felt that women were liable in this fashion as well (using cached version because lds.org is down)):

http://webcache.goog...=www.google.com

D&C Institute manual speaks of all members being liable:

http://institute.lds...n-200-a-c-a.asp

thanks Calmoriah

and thank you maidservant for your explanation.

[zerinus]

Actually, yes. I have no desire to be a Relief Society, or Primary President, so why would want to be a Bishop. But I would very much like to bless my children and others with husband or other Priesthood holders, be able to act as a witness at a baptism, or a temple sealing. How about dedicating my home in times of need. There are a number of thing that Priesthood holders can do that have nothing to do with administrative duties.

Of course maybe I miss understand the Priesthood.

There are indications in Church history that there was a form of the priesthood that Joseph Smith would have bestowed on women; and there are indications in Temple ordinances as well that such an order of the priesthood might exist. I doubt that it would have the same kind of "offices" that male priesthoods have; but I am sure it would enable you to do what you have described in your wish list, at the minimum! So who knows; if you live for it, some day you might be lucky enough to obtain it (in this life or the next).

[Wendy]

I see.

Well, when you have men perform a blessing of your child, they are doing it in your service.

Kinda like when you get your tires fixed at a tire shop, somebody does it for you because it is not your line of work to do it. Men and women have different, but both essential, callings in life, and it causes confusion if they are put in competition with each other.

Richard

Are you implying? that LDS men who hold the priesthood are in competition with each other and that this causes confusion? Are you saying that a married couple, both having the priesthood and able to hold the same callings, would be in competition with each other?

If competition would be a problem between men and women, do we see it in the few callings that both men and women now can hold, such as seminary teacher, Sunday School teacher, Primary teacher, chorister, etc.?

[frankenstein]

Are you implying? that LDS men who hold the priesthood are in competition with each other and that this causes confusion? Are you saying that a married couple, both having the priesthood and able to hold the same callings, would be in competition with each other?

If competition would be a problem between men and women, do we see it in the few callings that both men and women now can hold, such as seminary teacher, Sunday School teacher, Primary teacher, chorister, etc.?

Why don't women have the priesthood in the same manner as men, because that is the way God set it up. Anything else is just someones personal opinion. Would there be "confusion" as described? No there would not be confusion, just as there is not confusion now with most worthy male over age 12 having the priesthood. More worthy priesthood holders would have a positive affect, not confusion.

[BCSpace]

I believe this to be a very important doctrinal article on the subject:

“It is time, in the West, to defend not so much human rights as human obligations. Destructive and irresponsible freedom has been granted boundless space [in the free world]. [Western] Society appears to have little defense against … human decadence, … [and] the misuse of liberty for moral violence. … This is considered to be part of freedom, … [but] life organized [so] legalistically has thus shown its inability to defend itself against the corrosion of evil” (Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn,“A World Split Apart,” National Review, 7 July 1978, p. 838; italics added).

..............

And those last two verses—45 and 46. Are women the only ones who should have their bowels “full of charity”? Are men the only ones who should “garnish” their thoughts with virtue? Is the Holy Ghost a “constant companion” only for priesthood bearers? [D&C 121:45–46] Are women the only ones who might hold “an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth”? Will either a man or a woman have “an everlasting dominion” without the other? The questions give their own answers in the asking. When the Lord speaks of righteousness, there isn’t any conflict over gender—all of which leads me to ask, why is there such incredible energy expended by Latter-day Saint men and/or women over issues like women and the priesthood?

I offer this one answer to my own question. It seems to me that if there is a conflict, it is because someone, male or female, isn’t living the gospel of Jesus Christ.

A Woman’s Perspective on the Priesthood By Patricia T. Holland, Ensign, July 1980

[Fly Fisherman]

"women are not officially responsible for "the blood and sins of this generation", which THANK YOU, and men only become free from the blood and sins of "this generation" by making and carrying out their priesthood covenant and duties."

has anyone else heard this before? or does anyone else believe this? I having much trouble trying to figure out someone reach such a conclusion?

This reminds me of a statement by Brigham Young. It sounds similar and along the same lines:

"Woman must atone for sins committed by the volition of her own choice, but she will never become an angel to the devil, and sin so far as to place herself beyond the reach of mercy. She is not accountable for the sins that are in the world. God requires obedience from man, he is lord of creation, and at his hands the sins of the world will be required. Could the female portion of the human family fully understand this they would see that they are objects of tender mercy and greatly blessed."

- "A Few Words on Doctrine" speech at Tabernacle by Brigham Young, 8. Oct. 1861