A Power Heavenly Father Doesn'T Have

[mfbukowski]

I guess I've always assumed the spirit personage of the Holy Ghost is the same as our spirit personages. And i guess I've always assumed (or read/heard) that our spirit personages look and act similar to our physical bodies (i.e. seeing a spirit is like seeing a man) and can only be in one place and one time. If that is not true, then obviously the questions I am asking are irrelevant. I guess I thought some of those assumptions were doctrine.

I haven't seen any of those anywhere. And again, we are not sure what is meant by "indwelling".

Though in some sense God is a man, clearly he can do things we can't. (slight understatement!)

I don't think we need to assume that the Holy Spirit can only do what we can, or what our spirits can do, either!

And as Lehi points out, we can only think in analogies for this stuff anyway, and it's not wise to push those analogies too far.

[Questing Beast]

Does Heavenly Father's physical body limit His power? The scriptures tell us that the Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh and bone and were it not so that the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us (D&C 130:22-23). Does that mean that Heavenly Father cannot dwell in us? Also, what about Satan--can the devil dwell in us? Does this mean that Satan has a power that Heavenly Father does not?

When we speak of God being omnipotent, we of course know that He can't microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself couldn't eat it. However, is the power to dwell in us something that the Father does not have? Can this be resolved if we consider the power of the Godhead all together? If so, won't this power lost after the Holy Ghost receives a body? Is this really a limitation of power? Now that Jesus is resurrected, He can't very well atone for our sins again--not that such a thing makes sense (it being an Infinite atonement).

We do not even know what "dwell in us" means. And any concept where you imagine something limiting to "God" is de facto fallacious.

Mormon theology is limiting compared to "bog standard" Christian theology. Mormon theology raises all sorts of questions that "normal" Christians seldom angst about. This notion of the God of Creation, aka "God the Father", as a separate, glorified, physical human being, reduces "God" to a comprehensible concept by making him into one of us. The other way around is more correct: "God" made us to be as we are, but other than manifesting as one of us as "The Son" there is nothing comprehensible about "God"; the scriptures tell us that his ways are not our ways nor his thoughts our thoughts; as the heavens are higher than the earth so are his ways higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts. What part of finite and infinite do you have trouble with? The Earth ("upon which we stand") is finite, the "heavens" are infinite and remain to this moment utterly unknown quantitatively. "God" is not a once-upon-a-time mortal man who is now glorified and immortal: because being such a finite concept does not allow the scriptures to be true....

[bookofmormontruth]

I guess I've always assumed the spirit personage of the Holy Ghost is the same as our spirit personages. And i guess I've always assumed (or read/heard) that our spirit personages look and act similar to our physical bodies (i.e. seeing a spirit is like seeing a man) and can only be in one place and one time. If that is not true, then obviously the questions I am asking are irrelevant. I guess I thought some of those assumptions were doctrine.

The Holy Ghost is not the same as our spirits for He is a G-d and we are only gods in embryo. He also doesn't have a physical body yet so He can "dwell" with our spirits.

[Alla]

Okay. But I think the question we were getting at is if his influence can be everywhere, what is purpose or necessity of not having a physical body. The HG has a specific function and him not having a physical body seems tied into that function, but what advantage of not having a physical body is there, seeing that the spirit personage can only be in one place at one time?

I think it is possible that sometimes HG can dwell in us (one person at the time). And this is possible because He doesn't have physical body. The same like demons can dwell in us (one person at the time) because they don't have physical bodies.

May be prophets experienced this when HG was dwelling in them.

P.S. But most of the time we have only influence of the Holy Ghost. It is when HG doesn't dwell in us literally. I hope I didn't say something stupid.

[CV75]

resolved if we consider the power of the Godhead

Such things fall under roles and responsibilities, not powers. All have the power (D&C 58:28).

[Brian 2.0]

Brian 2.0, on 18 May 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

I guess I've always assumed the spirit personage of the Holy Ghost is the same as our spirit personages. And i guess I've always assumed (or read/heard) that our spirit personages look and act similar to our physical bodies (i.e. seeing a spirit is like seeing a man) and can only be in one place and one time. If that is not true, then obviously the questions I am asking are irrelevant. I guess I thought some of those assumptions were doctrine.

I haven't seen any of those anywhere.

Here's two quick things I found at lds.org

This is found in the Aaronic Priesthood manual (emphasis added):

President Joseph F. Smith distinguished between the person and the influence of the Holy Ghost: “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” ( 5th ed. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 61). Point out that the person of the Holy Ghost can be in only one place at a time, but his power and influence can be omnipresent—present everywhere at the same time.

This one is in June 1989 Ensign in the "I have a question" section. The footnote links aren't working so I can't find where he is quoting from):

The Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost are not the same. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit in the form of a man. He is separate and distinct from the Father and the Son, yet they all work together in perfect unity. The Father and the Son have resurrected bodies of flesh and bone, which the Holy Ghost does not have.²³ The body of the Holy Ghost is like the spirit body of the Lord, which the Lord showed unto the brother of Jared before His mortal birth. Such a body resembles that of a man, but consists of spirit matter, a substance finer and purer than temporal matter.²⁴ The Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not transform himself into any other form or manifest himself in any other image than that of a spirit man.

Unlike the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost does not fill the universe and cannot be personally present everywhere at the same time; however, his power and influence, through the Light of Christ, can be manifest at the same time throughout all the immensity of space.²⁵

It seems fairly clear that the current doctrine of the church is that the personage of the Holy Ghost cannot be in multiple places at once.

[mfbukowski]

Brian 2.0, on 18 May 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

I guess I've always assumed the spirit personage of the Holy Ghost is the same as our spirit personages. And i guess I've always assumed (or read/heard) that our spirit personages look and act similar to our physical bodies (i.e. seeing a spirit is like seeing a man) and can only be in one place and one time. If that is not true, then obviously the questions I am asking are irrelevant. I guess I thought some of those assumptions were doctrine.

Here's two quick things I found at lds.org

This is found in the Aaronic Priesthood manual (emphasis added):

President Joseph F. Smith distinguished between the person and the influence of the Holy Ghost: “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” ( 5th ed. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 61). Point out that the person of the Holy Ghost can be in only one place at a time, but his power and influence can be omnipresent—present everywhere at the same time.

This one is in June 1989 Ensign in the "I have a question" section. The footnote links aren't working so I can't find where he is quoting from):

The Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost are not the same. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit in the form of a man. He is separate and distinct from the Father and the Son, yet they all work together in perfect unity. The Father and the Son have resurrected bodies of flesh and bone, which the Holy Ghost does not have.²³ The body of the Holy Ghost is like the spirit body of the Lord, which the Lord showed unto the brother of Jared before His mortal birth. Such a body resembles that of a man, but consists of spirit matter, a substance finer and purer than temporal matter.²⁴ The Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not transform himself into any other form or manifest himself in any other image than that of a spirit man.

Unlike the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost does not fill the universe and cannot be personally present everywhere at the same time; however, his power and influence, through the Light of Christ, can be manifest at the same time throughout all the immensity of space.²⁵

It seems fairly clear that the current doctrine of the church is that the personage of the Holy Ghost cannot be in multiple places at once.

Which is, of course not the same as "dwelling with" more than one person at once, which it appears is indeed possible, since his power and influence can be everywhere at once, as it says, through the Light of Christ.

Like I said, it all depends on what you mean by "dwelling"

[Brian 2.0]

Which is, of course not the same as "dwelling with" more than one person at once, which it appears is indeed possible, since his power and influence can be everywhere at once, as it says, through the Light of Christ.

Like I said, it all depends on what you mean by "dwelling"

Maybe we're asking the same question, I don't know...

DOCTRINE #1: The ^aFather has a ^bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of ^cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not ^ddwell in us.

DOCTRINE #2: The personage of the Holy Ghost can only be in one place at one time, but his power and influence can be everywhere

The "were it not so" phrase implicates that IF Holy Ghost had a body he could NOT "dwell in us."

I guess you could say you have two options for "dwell" (there are probably more, but we have been talking about two kinds)

DWELL OPTION #1: The Holy Ghost "dwelling in us" is his ability to utilize the Light of Christ and by such have his power and influence. Can be done to multiple people simultaneously. The HG could NOT access this Light of Christ to do these things if he had a body.

DWELL OPTION #2: The Holy Ghost "dwelling in us" refers to his spirit personage actually "indwelling" our bodies and contacting our spirit (personage to personage). Can be done to only one person at any one time. The HG could not do this type of dwelling if he had a body.

The Holy Ghost can obviously do BOTH of those options. But if the HG does Option #2 at all, then the question being asked to speculate on is what is happening since it is such an exclusive event and goes far beyond "feeling the spirit."

if you don't think Option #2 happens, then that's fine, and the reason the HG doesn't have a body is because not having one allows him to access the Light of Christ in a way that he couldn't if he had a body. But for a number of us, the idea of him needing to NOT have a body to DWELL IN us seems like option #2.

[Brian 2.0]

And to answer the OP question, I can seem from D&C 130:22 that the Holy Ghost can do something that God the Father cannot (but the logic isn't great)

D&C 130:22 - The ^aFather has a ^bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of ^cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not ^ddwell in us.

FACT A - If the Holy Ghost had a body of flesh and bones he could not dwell in us

FACT B - The Father has a body of flesh and bones

therfore...

CONCLUSION - The Father cannot dwell in us

You can poke a hole in that logic because the HG and the FATHER are different people. And while having a body of flesh and bones WILL DEFINITELY disallow the HG from dwelling in us, having a body of flesh and bones MAY NOT disallow the Father from dwelling with us. This would mean that due to the Father's station or type of being He is, that stipulation for some reason does not apply to Him, but does apply to the Holy Ghost.

[mfbukowski]

DWELL OPTION #1: The Holy Ghost "dwelling in us" is his ability to utilize the Light of Christ and by such have his power and influence. Can be done to multiple people simultaneously. The HG could NOT access this Light of Christ to do these things if he had a body.

DWELL OPTION #2: The Holy Ghost "dwelling in us" refers to his spirit personage actually "indwelling" our bodies and contacting our spirit (personage to personage). Can be done to only one person at any one time. The HG could not do this type of dwelling if he had a body.

I think option 1 is always the case and option 2 is never the case.

[mfbukowski]

And to answer the OP question, I can seem from D&C 130:22 that the Holy Ghost can do something that God the Father cannot (but the logic isn't great)

D&C 130:22 - The ^aFather has a ^bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of ^cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not ^ddwell in us.

FACT A - If the Holy Ghost had a body of flesh and bones he could not dwell in us

FACT B - The Father has a body of flesh and bones

therfore...

CONCLUSION - The Father cannot dwell in us

You can poke a hole in that logic because the HG and the FATHER are different people. And while having a body of flesh and bones WILL DEFINITELY disallow the HG from dwelling in us, having a body of flesh and bones MAY NOT disallow the Father from dwelling with us. This would mean that due to the Father's station or type of being He is, that stipulation for some reason does not apply to Him, but does apply to the Holy Ghost.

This is pretty much what I meant to convey in posts 4 and 5, above.

Bottom line: I don't think that God or the HG ever "indwells" in anyone in the sense of "possession" or taking over someone's spirit, or actually moving "into" our bodies. There is nothing about that idea which makes sense imo.

[Calm]

Bottom line: I don't think that God or the HG ever "indwells" in anyone in the sense of "possession" or taking over someone's spirit, or actually moving "into" our bodies. There is nothing about that idea which makes sense imo.

It seems to me to be more about the ability to communicate directly with the individual, not so much about the mechanics of how it is done.

[mfbukowski]

It seems to me to be more about the ability to communicate directly with the individual, not so much about the mechanics of how it is done.

Yep. I think I would define "indwelling" as "constant communication". It feels as if the still small voice is inside you all the time- but that does not mean that the person of the HG is actually inside my body and no one else's.

That just does not make sense.

[LeSellers]

[the Holy Ghost's being inside my body and no one else's] just does not make sense.

One of the functions of the Holy Ghost is to purge the last vestiges of the natural man from the faithful's bdoy. He must get inside us to do that.

He also causes the "tender feelings" we (Saints) all recognize as the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and He does this by entering our bodies and "re-patching*" the spiritual connections in our brains. As I said elsewhere inthis topic, He has no mass, and so can perform these functions at lightning speed (or faster), so His time in anyone's body, and the travel time between people is zero. He can be in but one place at a time, but the time needed is infintesimal.

* A reference to a "patch panel" in a telecommunications site. Incoming and outgoing signals are "soft-wired" using patch cords to move the signal from one circuit to another. To "re-patch" a line is to move it from the circuit it had been traveling to another one. It can also refer to jumpers used in electronics to move a voltage or current from the source to a different target component. The Holy Ghost can do the same tihngs for us that a Patch Panel Operator does in his SB675.

Lehi

[Calm]

One of the functions of the Holy Ghost is to purge the last vestiges of the natural man from the faithful's bdoy. He must get inside us to do that.

Why?

He also causes the "tender feelings" we (Saints) all recognize as the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and He does this by entering our bodies and "re-patching*" the spiritual connections in our brains.

Possibly but since there are things that cause similar "tender feelings" that are not caused by something entering our bodies---save through our senses---why cannot it be just a result of his version of the "still, small voice"?

As to him having no mass, Joseph taught that spirit was refined matter, more pure...I don't see anything there that requires spirit to be of no mass whatsoever.

[Brian 2.0]

It does seem to make more sense that there is no "indwelling" and that the HG uses the light of christ, which is everywhere and "in" all thing as his means of "dwelling" and spreading his power and influence.

The thing that is harder to understand (and there is nothing said about it) is why the HG would need to NOT have a body to do such a thing.