A Power Heavenly Father Doesn'T Have

[Vance]

If God violated the laws of physics, he would no longer be God. He has a material body and two material bodies cannot occupy the same space, so if he were to "dwell" in us- ie: in our fleshly tabernacle to use scriptural language- it would violate the laws of physics.

I think a more accurate statement would be this.

If God violated the laws of physics, he would no longer be God. He has a materialphysical body and two materialphysical bodies cannot occupy the same space (as far as we know), so if he were to "dwell" in us- ie: in our fleshly tabernacle to use scriptural language- it would violate the laws of physics.

I have found absolutely NOTHING in scripture to even suggest any thing is or can be "immaterial".

[mfbukowski]

I think a more accurate statement would be this.

I have found absolutely NOTHING in scripture to even suggest any thing is or can be "immaterial".

You're right- that's probably a better word.

I didn't mean to imply that anything was "immaterial"- I don't think I said that- just that he is "material".

But yes, the word "physical" avoids the problem.

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, pass the Guinness.

Oh man, I haven't had a Guinness in 31 years and 5 months.

You had to say that didn't you?!?!

[Lightbearer]

Does Heavenly Father's physical body limit His power? The scriptures tell us that the Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh and bone and were it not so that the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us (D&C 130:22-23). Does that mean that Heavenly Father cannot dwell in us? Also, what about Satan--can the devil dwell in us? Does this mean that Satan has a power that Heavenly Father does not?

No it does not limit His power at all. In fact the Holy Ghost who is a member of the Godhead acts under the direction of the Father, just as Jesus acted under direction of the Father in creating this earth. It is an extention of His power, not a limitation. As for Satan, He can only dwell in us if we allow it through our actions, the prophet Joseph taught that those who have bodies always have power over those who are without bodies. Just because God can and does delegate His power in no way dimishes His power or limits it, in fact we see this in the administration of the priesthood and it's authority and power. We are learning to be gods ourselves and this is the only way we can is by correct and faithful use of His power. That is what exalts us.

When we speak of God being omnipotent, we of course know that He can't microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself couldn't eat it. However, is the power to dwell in us something that the Father does not have? Can this be resolved if we consider the power of the Godhead all together? If so, won't this power lost after the Holy Ghost receives a body? Is this really a limitation of power? Now that Jesus is resurrected, He can't very well atone for our sins again--not that such a thing makes sense (it being an Infinite atonement).

It has never been revealed if the Holy Ghost will receive a physical body or not. However it should be understood that that all the works of God cannot be understood or revealed while we are in the flesh and us remain in this mortal body. I think there is a great ignorance of the nature of spirits and also resurrected beings. If it is suggested that there be Gods many and Lords many then why not Holy Ghosts many? The fact is the disposition of the Holy Ghost has not been revealed. One thing I do know is that the spirit of God (light of Christ) comprehends all things as recorded here:

(D&C 88:3-13) "Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son— He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made; As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made; And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand. And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings; Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things."

I think this light is something far beyond the personage of the Holy Ghost and I think it is through this power that all the personages of the Godhead do their ordained missions. So I do not think this limits the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Ghost and that is why they are referred to as one God, or Godhead. Neither the Son or the Holy Ghost are "indenpendent players" but all work for our salvation and exaltation.

[Brian 2.0]

So if the "light" or "power" is used by all the members on the Godhead, what purpose does the "indwelling" of the actual spirit personage of the Holy Ghost do? Since his spirit personage can't be in two places at once (assuming that), the occurrence of the HG indwelling is rare. But he doesn't have a body for the reason of "indwelling" so what do you suppose that purpose is? Perhaps transfiguration to allow for visitation from God or Jesus in all their glory?

[asbestosman]

So if the "light" or "power" is used by all the members on the Godhead, what purpose does the "indwelling" of the actual spirit personage of the Holy Ghost do? Since his spirit personage can't be in two places at once (assuming that), the occurrence of the HG indwelling is rare. But he doesn't have a body for the reason of "indwelling"

Exactly my point.

so what do you suppose that purpose is? Perhaps transfiguration to allow for visitation from God or Jesus in all their glory?

That's an interesting possibility, but then does that mean only one person could be transfigured at a time? What about when the disciples followed Jesus to the Mount of Transfiguration? How about when Jesus visited the Nephites? How about when Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon both saw the Vision of the kingdoms along with the glory of the Son on the right hand of the Father?

[asbestosman]

If God violated the laws of physics, he would no longer be God. He has a material body and two material bodies cannot occupy the same space, so if he were to "dwell" in us- ie: in our fleshly tabernacle to use scriptural language- it would violate the laws of physics.

When various prophets came to the Kirtland temple (D&C 110), did they have to come through open windows / doors? What about when Moroni visited Joseph Smith in his home (or was Moroni not resurrected yet)? How about this passage from John:

19¶Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

It's not that he is not omnipotent, but he is self-determined, and has voluntarily decided to surrender to the laws he has given us. He too would drive on the right side of the road if he were driving a car- a silly example- but that is what I mean.

He voluntarily lives by the laws he has established and is properly termed "self determined" and totally "self-actualized". In fact, his existence defines what those terms mean.

Do you think this is a law He could theoretically violate but will not--such as lying--or is it an impossibility such as a married bachelor? In any case, could He theoretically shed His physical body to obtain the power of dwelling in us?

[mfbukowski]

When various prophets came to the Kirtland temple (D&C 110), did they have to come through open windows / doors? What about when Moroni visited Joseph Smith in his home (or was Moroni not resurrected yet)? How about this passage from John:

Do you think this is a law He could theoretically violate but will not--such as lying--or is it an impossibility such as a married bachelor? In any case, could He theoretically shed His physical body to obtain the power of dwelling in us?

It's not a logical impossibility- He voluntarily does not violate laws, just as I mentioned earlier- as you do not murder people, but could. I think the method is just scientifically unknown at this time. Radio waves pierce walls, gamma rays, etc., and they are not supernatural.

I suspect it has something to do with dimensions- but I don't have a clue. It's like the flatland illustrations I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6HxDG4h4bg&feature=fvwrel

Modern science postulates the possibility of 11 dimensions, as I understand it.

[mfbukowski]

The 11th dimension.

I don't think entering a closed room or "indwelling"- whatever that means, is a problem for God, without being "supernatural", and simply following the natural laws we have no clue about.

[asbestosman]

Sure I dig extra dimensions. I even wrote up some code to make a spinning hypercube and 4-d triangular prisms when I was in high school. I even dig fractional dimensions. However, why does the Holy Ghost's lack of a physical body mean He can dwell in us in some way that differentiates Him from beings that have a physical body?

[zerinus]

However, why does the Holy Ghost's lack of a physical body mean He can dwell in us in some way that differentiates Him from beings that have a physical body?

It doesn't. As I said, God can "dwell" in us by means of the Spirit which proceeds form Him:

Romans 8

:

9 . . . Now if any man have not the

Spirit of Christ,

he is none of his.

10 And if

Christ be in you

[i.e. by His Spirit], the body is dead because of sin; . . .

1 Corinthians 3

:

16 Know ye not that ye are the

temple

[i.e. home] of God, and that the

Spirit

of God dwelleth in you? . . .

2 Corinthians 6

:

16 . . . as God hath said, I will

dwell

in them, and

walk

in them; . . .

Ephesians 2

:

22 In whom ye also are builded for an

habitation

[i.e. home] of God through the

Spirit

.

l John 3

:

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and

he in him

. And hereby we know that he

abideth

in us, by the

Spirit

which he hath given us.

1 John 4

:

13 Hereby we know that we dwell in him, and

he in us,

because he hath given us of

his Spirit

.

[mfbukowski]

Sure I dig extra dimensions. I even wrote up some code to make a spinning hypercube and 4-d triangular prisms when I was in high school. I even dig fractional dimensions. However, why does the Holy Ghost's lack of a physical body mean He can dwell in us in some way that differentiates Him from beings that have a physical body?

Explain to me how the 11th dimension works and I will be glad to make something up just as convincing. None of this is "real" until it is defined anyway.

The whole thing depends on how one defines "indwell", I can tell you that much.

[mfbukowski]

It doesn't. As I said, God can "dwell" in us by means of the Spirit which proceeds form Him:

I notice you use quotes around "dwell".

My point precisely.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Does Heavenly Father's physical body limit His power? The scriptures tell us that the Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh and bone and were it not so that the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us (D&C 130:22-23). Does that mean that Heavenly Father cannot dwell in us? Also, what about Satan--can the devil dwell in us? Does this mean that Satan has a power that Heavenly Father does not?

When we speak of God being omnipotent, we of course know that He can't microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself couldn't eat it. However, is the power to dwell in us something that the Father does not have? Can this be resolved if we consider the power of the Godhead all together? If so, won't this power lost after the Holy Ghost receives a body? Is this really a limitation of power? Now that Jesus is resurrected, He can't very well atone for our sins again--not that such a thing makes sense (it being an Infinite atonement).

This is why he is a Spirit, but he does nothing until the Father tells Christ, what to tell him what to do, so say’s the Book of John.

[Brian 2.0]

This is why he is a Spirit, but he does nothing until the Father tells Christ, what to tell him what to do, so say’s the Book of John.

But by Spirit, do you mean spirit personage (which can hypothetically only be in one place at home time), or do you mean something beyond "Spirit Personage"?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

But by Spirit, do you mean spirit personage (which can hypothetically only be in one place at home time), or do you mean something beyond "Spirit Personage"?

Yes, but his influence can be everywhere. As that goes so can the father and the Son, but the Holy Spirit has a specific function to bring unto our remembrance the words of Christ and to bear withness of the Father and Son, as well as all truth. Even scientific truth.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

double post...

[Brian 2.0]

Yes, but his influence can be everywhere. As that goes so can the father and the Son, but the Holy Spirit has a specific function to bring unto our remembrance the words of Christ and to bear withness of the Father and Son, as well as all truth. Even scientific truth.

Okay. But I think the question we were getting at is if his influence can be everywhere, what is purpose or necessity of not having a physical body. The HG has a specific function and him not having a physical body seems tied into that function, but what advantage of not having a physical body is there, seeing that the spirit personage can only be in one place at one time?

[LeSellers]

Okay. But I think the question we were getting at is if his influence can be everywhere, what is purpose or necessity of not having a physical body. The HG has a specific function and him not having a physical body seems tied into that function, but what advantage of not having a physical body is there, seeing that the spirit personage can only be in one place at one time?

At any one moment, He can be in a specific spot, e.g., dwelling within one of us. However, that does not mean that He cannot be felt elsewhere (i.e., His influence). It may be, too, that He can move instantaneously by virtue of his body's having no mass, and Father and Christ are more limited in this way—with physicl bodies—needing some finite (albeit trvial in the grand scheme of things) time to move from point A to point B.

Neither Father nor Christ can be in any but one place at a time, either, and while Their influence may be like that of the Holy Ghost's (which is not doctrine, as far as I know) and be felt more broadly, They cannot, by reason of Their physical bodies, dwell within us (which is doctrine).

Lehi

[Brian 2.0]

At any one moment, He can be in a specific spot, e.g., dwelling within one of us. However, that does not mean that He cannot be felt elsewhere (i.e., His influence). It may be, too, that He can move instantaneously by virtue of his body's having no mass, and Father and Christ are more limited in this way—with physicl bodies—needing some finite (albeit trvial in the grand scheme of things) time to move from point A to point B.

Okay. I get that. Then the next question would be what (if anything) is the difference between the HG dwelling within one of us and having his influence felt?

There must be a specific reason for the dwelling, because if there isn't then why not just do all the work by influence.

[mfbukowski]

Okay. I get that. Then the next question would be what (if anything) is the difference between the HG dwelling within one of us and having his influence felt?

There must be a specific reason for the dwelling, because if there isn't then why not just do all the work by influence.

It's like trying to get wi fi from back behind your garage where it only works sometimes vs. running a wire back there, for a continuous connection.

Getting confirmed and living righteously means you don't have to rely on a funky wireless connection. Then the internet "dwells in" your computer. Click the icon, and you're connected.

[Brian 2.0]

It's like trying to get wi fi from back behind your garage where it only works sometimes vs. running a wire back there, for a continuous connection.

Getting confirmed and living righteously means you don't have to rely on a funky wireless connection. Then the internet "dwells in" your computer. Click the icon, and you're connected.

But in our case, we are talking about ONE wired connection that can happen to ONE computer at time. The personage of the HG cannot dwell in you unless it is not dwelling in everyone else.

[mfbukowski]

But in our case, we are talking about ONE wired connection that can happen to ONE computer at time. The personage of the HG cannot dwell in you unless it is not dwelling in everyone else.

Well I'd like to see a reference for that one. Where does it say that the HG can only "dwell" with one person at a time?

That doesn't follow from saying that "if he were not a personage of spirit he could not dwell with us".

Perhaps one of the properties unique to a personage of spirit is that He can dwell with many at once. As I have said many times, it all depends on what you mean by "dwell"

[LeSellers]

But in our case, we are talking about ONE wired connection that can happen to ONE computer at time. The personage of the HG cannot dwell in you unless it is not dwelling in everyone else.

WARNING: Don't push any analogy too far.

Unfortuantely, the Holy Ghost isn't too busy since most people don't rely on Him all that often.

Lehi

[Brian 2.0]

Well I'd like to see a reference for that one. Where does it say that the HG can only "dwell" with one person at a time?

That doesn't follow from saying that "if he were not a personage of spirit he could not dwell with us".

Perhaps one of the properties unique to a personage of spirit is that He can dwell with many at once. As I have said many times, it all depends on what you mean by "dwell"

I guess I've always assumed the spirit personage of the Holy Ghost is the same as our spirit personages. And i guess I've always assumed (or read/heard) that our spirit personages look and act similar to our physical bodies (i.e. seeing a spirit is like seeing a man) and can only be in one place and one time. If that is not true, then obviously the questions I am asking are irrelevant. I guess I thought some of those assumptions were doctrine.