Would Mormons Ever Consider Gay-Related Anti-Bullying Curriculum?

[USU78]

did you also notice your inability to focus on the issue being discussed or did you want to derail the discussion?

Francis fails to recognize that setting aside contracts, which should be awarded to the best/cheapest bidder, for female-owned or minority-owned bidders, creates a situation where the female-owned or minority-owned business is valued and white-male-owned businesses are devalued completely . . . white-male-owned businesses need not apply at all.

It's the same issue.

If you're not a member of the protected class, you are worth less in the eyes of the law and of government than your more highly-favored neighbors.

This is an abomination.

USU "Knows no ancestor of his on this side of the pond ever owned anybody" 78

[USU78]

I suggest if a white person feels that a black person is more valued than they are, try being black for a while.

I'd love to be a black contractor who wouldn't ever have to enter into competitive bidding for government contracts. I could clean up and never have to sharpen my pencil.

I'd love to be a black college candidate who wouldn't ever have to demonstrate my academic competence by scoring at the same level on the same test as a white kid in order to get into the college of my choice and get scholarships at higher levels than my scores would seem to indicate I'm entitled to.

I'd love to be a black couple applying for housing loans (until the last 3 years, that is) which would qualify me for no-down, stated (and not demonstrated) income loans at preferred interest rates because Congress is still fighting the Civil War.

USU "Really tired of the whining" 78

[thesometimesaint]

Male bovine fecal material. Such set asides are designed to give minorities a chance to compete, and not be excluded before the game even starts.

[Deborah]

Such set asides are designed to give minorities a chance to compete, and not be excluded before the game even starts.

You seriously believe that? If they are able to compete why do they need to have special status? Competition means you are up to the task not that you have to be given a very unfair head start and/or preference.

[Mordecai]

...Such set asides are designed to give minorities a chance to compete, and not be excluded before the game even starts.

I think they were designed to get minorities to vote for Democrats, personally. Like LBJ said, "We'll have those n*****s voting for us for the next 200 years" (From one of LBJ's many biographies). Some hero of the civil rights movement he was.

[california boy]

Given the answers on this thread to the opening question, I would say the answer is pretty much NO.

[Mars]

I'm totally with TSS on the race issue.

[Jaybear]

I'd love to be a black college candidate who wouldn't ever have to demonstrate my academic competence by scoring at the same level on the same test as a white kid in order to get into the college of my choice and get scholarships at higher levels than my scores would seem to indicate I'm entitled to.

Sorry, but if you are black, you are black for everything, all the time.

A study a few years ago showed that, all other things being equal, a white man just released from prison has a better chance of securing an interview than a black applicant without a criminal record.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

I've never been afraid of competition in my field of expertise. But I do know when the deck is being stacked against me.

To give you a better idea. On the original Stanford Binet test for basic intelligence there was a question of what is love in tennis. Now my question is what does a poor black teenager from the inner city know of tennis? When it is most likely he's never even seen what a tennis court looks like, let alone played tennis on it.

[LDSToronto]

I'd love to be a black contractor who wouldn't ever have to enter into competitive bidding for government contracts. I could clean up and never have to sharpen my pencil.

I'd love to be a black college candidate who wouldn't ever have to demonstrate my academic competence by scoring at the same level on the same test as a white kid in order to get into the college of my choice and get scholarships at higher levels than my scores would seem to indicate I'm entitled to.

I'd love to be a black couple applying for housing loans (until the last 3 years, that is) which would qualify me for no-down, stated (and not demonstrated) income loans at preferred interest rates because Congress is still fighting the Civil War.

USU "Really tired of the whining" 78

USU "Really, I'm not a racist, really" 78

[LDSToronto]

In surprising news from Canada, the following memo was released on April 15th from the Assembly of Catholic Bishops in Ontario to the Ontario Catholic Education Organizations:

As a religious organization that disagrees with same-sex relationships, yet still recognizes and has decided to proactively promote and call for an educational curriculum that specifically mentions sexual orientation as an area that's suceptible to bullying in it's efforts to promote peace and respect, the Assembly of Catholic Bishops of Ontario have just earned tremendous respect, in my book.

I wonder if the LDS Church and it's members would ever recognize or promote such a need...

Darin

Thanks, Darin. Just another reason I'm proud to be a Canadian.

H.

[thesometimesaint]

Mordecai:

Unlike you I believe in a participatory democracy. Every person should have their voice heard. Let the majority rule under constitutionally based rights for the minority.

LBJ also said about the Civil Rights Act "I know the risks are great and we might lose the South, but those sorts of states may be lost anyway." The South has been solidly Republican for over 40 years now. Ronald Reagan campaigned on the "Southern Strategy" of "States Rights"(code words for segregation/discrimination) in Philadelphia. No not the famous one in Pennsylvania. The one in Mississippi. Where 3 years earlier three young Civil Rights workers were murdered for trying to register "the Negroes" to vote.

[frankenstein]

Every person should have their voice heard. Let the majority rule under constitutionally based rights for the minority.

the person who wrote what could be described as the libertarian bible did not believe everyone's voice should be. this person believed only a select few should be permitted to vote, under the auspicious that those select few would vote in the best interest of woman. so it would come as no surprise to me that some, even in the United States, who proclaim liberty would limit voting to a select class of people.

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

Yes the founders were afraid of the mob/masses. Jefferson himself was for a nation of small farmers, and small business owners, yet he owned slaves. It took till a bloody Civil War, and a contentious Women's Suffrage movement to right many of the founders wrongs. It wasn't until the late 1960's that legal segregation and discrimination were effectively ended in this country. It took the horrible Vietnam War to give 18 year old's, and the war nearly over, the right to a say on who sent them there, Utah, along with Florida, Kentucky, Mississippi, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, and South Dakota are the few remaining states not to ratify the amendment. We are always in the process of making this a more perfect union. We have yet to arrive.

[Calm]

Deborah:

I've never been afraid of competition in my field of expertise. But I do know when the deck is being stacked against me.

To give you a better idea. On the original Stanford Binet test for basic intelligence there was a question of what is love in tennis. Now my question is what does a poor black teenager from the inner city know of tennis? When it is most likely he's never even seen what a tennis court looks like, let alone played tennis on it.

The problem arises, in my opinion, when the attempt to balance out where the deck has been stacked against minorities (which I believe it has extensively in the past and though not so much, still is in the present in education) that instead of attempting to supply the minorities with what they've not been given in the past, instead standards have been lowered to make it easier for them. According to several black friends I've had over the years, this diminishes their efforts in the long run and does not help those who need the help to develop the actual skills and knowledge they need to be true competitors. Those among my friends who were equipped to compete were frustrated because they were treated with the same expectation level as those who were allowed in on a lower standard, those who did not yet have the skills to compete were frustrated because they saw their desires and often opportunity to gain those skills being dismissed as unnecessary since the minority standard didn't require them and they were pushed instead to take the short cuts (or at least that is how they saw the opportunities given them).

I think it would have been better when it comes to government intervention to restrict itself to addressing the problem by providing more educational opportunities (such as headstart programs that lasted throughout educational years or funding for prep schools to help minorities prior to college) rather than lowering a standard as it sets the participants up (according to certain of my friends who happened to be minorities) for if not failure ultimately because they never got a real chance to get the underlying skills needed, but also tends to give them the self perception that they are dependent on others for their success and robs them of a sense of accomplishment and self esteem that can be achieved when meeting high expectations.

add-on: as a female student in electrical engineering, I remember being ticked off when my fellow male students assumed I was a shoo in for a job due to the quotas at the time and therefore didn't have to try all that hard when as far as I could see I was working my butt off as hard as any of them (and on top of that tutored quite a few returned missionaries to help them get back up to speed with their math skills).

[jskains]

The ultimate problem IMHO, is that the reason that Communism (Marx) does not work is because an absolute controlling equalizer (an extreme socalist government) must exist to get the people ready for the true state of communism. The power that one must give to that equalizer is so extreme, that the equalizer itself would have no reason to release itself from its position when there is confirmation that all is well. Thus the problem is, when would a communist government declare the people equal enough to disban itself?

The same problem exists here. The NAACP is a very politically and socialy powerful group of people. When would they ever admit that blacks are equal, even if there were lots of evidence that they were? No group wants to be obsoleted, so why would the NAACP want to obsolete itself by being honest about the state of black/white relations? Same goes for MAPA (Mexican American Political Association), the group that actually said that if they couldn't win over the whites socially, they would breed the whites out (and it's working apparently).

This form of social engineering and economic stimulation targetting any group does not really fix the issues. It simply makes them worse, creating resentment. How often does the modern white male need to hear it is all his fault when in reality, he had nothing to do with slavery, the KKK, or any other racist decision, idea, or action? A minority screams about how it isn't their choice to be born a minority, but equally, a white man didn't chose their race either.

That cartoon that LDSToronto posted is extremely offensive IMHO. It's racist itself. It demands that one group be punished for another group who hurt a third group, who most of which are long dead. It's ludicrist.

People learn better through cooperation and education than force. I do not believe that laws change people's minds about minorities. I think getting to know minorities and working together makes people change their minds. I believe that the Civil Rights laws against the private sector is wrong. I do believe a bigoted white man should absolutely have the right to ban blacks from his organization. I personally would not visit such an establishment, and instead would chose a more accepting group, hence allowing market capitalism to correct him. But then that to me solves problems than giving special rights to others in order to make up for the past.

What markers are left? A black man has become President of the United States. What is the next goal marker? A black man leads our country. But that's not enough. What is enough? How long to racial subsidies need to be in place?

Personally at the end of the day, we all bleed red. And until we ignore race/color, we will always have issues. As the polls indicate, we have one of two options. Either we'll move away from race and start focusing on being American or human or whatever..... Or the races will all intermix until there are no more. Either way, something is gonna happen, and no amount of affirmative action will be the deciding factor.

Just my humble opinion..

JMS

[frankenstein]

In my institution of hiring learning, the method for dealing with discrimination as taught by the Ethics Profession was unapologetic deliberate reverse discrimination....the worst thing was this Professor was on the States Ethics Board for the professional organization she was a part of. I had the misfortune of being a student of hers and having to remain in class while the justified talk of discrimination went on.

[Nemesis]

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