Wiggle room for changing church teachings on homosexuality

[Deborah]

What do you mean by such a minority. You don't have to be gay to understand this is a civil rights issue. It is hardly a minority that believe this. In fact, the MAJORITY of Americans now support gay marriage.

Really? Then how did Prop 8 pass? Mormons were definitely not in the majority in Calif. Why is it when it is put to public vote it continually fails and it falls to an activist judiciary to make laws contrary to the people's will.

I do not consider this a civil rights issue, but an issue of morality. And laws for centuries have legislated morality as the citizens see it, like it or not. As you should know polls don't always tell the truth about what people believe. Many people like to look open-minded when answering such questions. That doesn't mean they necessarily vote that way.

[SkepticTheist]

Well, I won't preach to you, but I will tell you that if you talk to any Bishop or Stake President that has studied intently the Church's handbook of instructions and has had training on the church's actual position on these things, or who has had dealings with counselors at LDS Family Services, they would tell you that you are being a bit extreme. You see, my former Bishop that I talked to about this very specific thing IS a counselor at LDS Family Services.

I'm certainly NOT saying that you should not serve your spouse. Of course you should serve your spouse.

Skeptic Theist, that's why I said it won't work for everyone. It is a rule for me. Perhaps me alone, I do not know. =)

Others may adopt that rule if God tells them too. But for me, they are not connected. Pleasure may be something that builds for others, but it is a destructive thing for me. That's why I use service instead.

[TAO]

Well, I won't preach to you, but I will tell you that if you talk to any Bishop or Stake President that has studied intently the Church's handbook of instructions and has had training on the church's actual position on these things, or who has had dealings with counselors at LDS Family Services, they would tell you that you are being a bit extreme. You see, my former Bishop that I talked to about this very specific thing IS a counselor at LDS Family Services.

Nah, I know the church's stance on these things (it's on the church website). And yah, it is a bit extreme, but it is there for a reason for it. Not one that I will talk about though... too private indeed. It may be for the moment. It may be for my lifetime. Until God releases me from it, that it is.

[SkepticTheist]

If you are referring to something that is outside the norm that is particular to your situation, then I certainly will say no more, and I won't ask.

Nah, I know the church's stance on these things (it's on the church website). And yah, it is a bit extreme, but it is there for a reason for it. Not one that I will talk about though... too private indeed. It may be for the moment. It may be for my lifetime. Until God releases me from it, that it is.

[TAO]

EDIT: Yah, you beat me too it, it has to do with one of my own weaknesses, sorryz =P.

[erichard]

What do you mean by such a minority. You don't have to be gay to understand this is a civil rights issue. It is hardly a minority that believe this. In fact, the MAJORITY of Americans now support gay marriage. Each poll has more and more people supporting gay marriage.

...

Hi,

I did internet research, and it does appear that the pollsters say that 53% of Americans now favor gay marriage. But over the age of 65 only 18% favor it.

The youth in American have been fed a lot of things that they may later realize was not reality-- so the pendulum may very well swing back to historical norms in the future.

Gays need all the help they can get. "Natural selection leads to extinction of the less improved forms of life." (a quote from Darwin) It is pretty clear that the gay lifestyle in general is scheduled for extinction through natural selection.

Richard

[Mordecai]

I did internet research, and it does appear that the pollsters say that 53% of Americans now favor gay marriage. But over the age of 65 only 18% favor it.

I've noted this trend myself. Not coincidentally, there's a book out called The Dumbest Generation discussing the decreased intelligent and critical thinking of young people today, exploring both the studies and what they indicate and the causes. http://www.amazon.com/Dumbest-Generation-Stupefies-Americans-Jeopardizes/dp/1585426393 Very sad.

[california boy]

Really? Then how did Prop 8 pass? Mormons were definitely not in the majority in Calif. Why is it when it is put to public vote it continually fails and it falls to an activist judiciary to make laws contrary to the people's will.

I do not consider this a civil rights issue, but an issue of morality. And laws for centuries have legislated morality as the citizens see it, like it or not. As you should know polls don't always tell the truth about what people believe. Many people like to look open-minded when answering such questions. That doesn't mean they necessarily vote that way.

This is what you said

We are already seeing the hatred expressed toward the church for their stance on this. It's frightening that such a minority has such sway in the media and in intimidating lawmakers and justices to kowtow to their desire to be accepted as mainstream. It's not enough to live their lives privately and in freedom, as they would not be able to do in many places. They want to throw it in our faces with offensive displays and vociferous protests and threats.

Prop 8 was 3 years ago. Support for gay marriage has continued to increase. And in any event, prop 8 was won by only 4% difference. Hardly a small minority. The election was extremely close.

[Mordecai]

Prop 8 was 3 years ago. Support for gay marriage has continued to increase. And in any event, prop 8 was won by only 4% difference. Hardly a small minority. The election was extremely close.

Conservative turnout wasn't very high, because most conservatives didn't care for John McCain. We can always rematch and frankly, I'm not terribly concerned. It helps that the ballot won't read, "This will take away the right of gays to marry," which was not true. It only stopped the gov't from recognizing a gay union as if it were the same as a marriage. Since it isn't the same, that's not remotely unfair.

[california boy]

Conservative turnout wasn't very high, because most conservatives didn't care for John McCain. We can always rematch and frankly, I'm not terribly concerned. It helps that the ballot won't read, "This will take away the right of gays to marry," which was not true. It only stopped the gov't from recognizing a gay union as if it were the same as a marriage. Since it isn't the same, that's not remotely unfair.

The point is, this is not some small fringe gay conspiracy fighting for equality. As noted, it is now the MAJORITY of Americans that believe this is a civil rights issue. To say it is some liberal media agenda or some gay activist agenda is disingenuous. It is an American agenda supported by the majority of Americans. People in this country are saying that equality is more important than religious dogma in the laws of this country. More and more courts see it that way, more and more legislative bodies see it that way and more and more countries (Uruguay being the latest) see ti that way. And that my friend is how most Americans see this issue.

[Mordecai]

The point is, this is not some small fringe gay conspiracy fighting for equality. As noted, it is now the MAJORITY of Americans that believe this is a civil rights issue...

Yeah, because young people have been indoctrinated via the schools and media. Look at the states. If you're under thirty, not only are you part of the "dumbest generation," but you support "gay marriage" by a wide margin. People that are older than that, more often than not, see through the incredibly arrogant "history is on our side" rhetoric.

Looking at the purple, people not considered part of the "dumbest generation," are not supportive of gay-marriage dogma. You're losing badly with everyone older than 18-29. You guys may "win," but only by getting the gullible on your side, more than anyone. By the way, young people don't typically vote as much as older people. With people burned out on Obama, don't be too excited about the next election cycle, because your guys won't show up as much as you'd like.

By the way, looking at the x's, you're losing in almost every state. Still. Given the strong support for civil unions in this country and how much more reasonable that is, at some point, I think support for gay-marriage dogma will peak at some point. All we need is equal treatment for civil unions, implementing the voucher system and further spreading homeschooling, and we can stop the movement toward gov't homodogma. We may also see a movement back to religion as the economy and conditions around the world worsen, not to mention the movement in philosophy toward more theism. Antony Flew was at the forefront of that movement in England. Hopefully we'll see more of that in the U.S. That'll all take some time and work, but I think it's quite doable.

[california boy]

Yeah, because young people have been indoctrinated via the schools and media. Look at the states. If you're under thirty, not only are you part of the "dumbest generation," but you support "gay marriage" by a wide margin. People that are older than that, more often than not, see through the incredibly arrogant "history is on our side" rhetoric.

Look at the purple, people not considered part of the "dumbest generation." You're losing badly with everyone older than 18-29.

So what is your point? Is this some revelation that older people tend to change their attitudes slower than younger people? You aren't going to get an argument about that point from me. The fact is, in EVERY age catagory, there has been more people supporting equal rights for gays over the past decade. And yes, the biggest gains have been among younger adults. I am sure part of that is because they have friends that are gay and as it turns out, their gay friends not some satanic antichrist group trying to pull apart straight marriage that many conservatives make them out to be. They don't swallow the lie,. Even among Mormons, I would guess that there is an increase in members that see this issue as a civil rights issue rather than a religious dogma issue than there were 10 years ago. I certainly have heard from members who regret their work on supporting prop 8.

[california boy]

It is interesting that the GREATEST support for gay marriage among those 65 and older is in Massachuetts. And about 74% of all people from Massachuetts support gay marriage. So the state where gay marriage has been legal for the longest period of time, the state that has lived with gay marriage the longest, support gay marriage the most. What does that tell you???? I would love to hear your spin on that.

Just one more note. You did notice that some of the data is as old as 1994 right?

[Jaybear]

Mordecai is wrong. He asserts without any causal evidence that young people support gay marriage because they are part of the "dumbest" generation. Mordy's theory is that people who support gay marriage are gullible.

Not only is Mordy wrong, but he has it backwards.

According to the prop 8 exit polls, those who voted against Prop 8 included:

People with grad degrees: 60%

People earn over $150K: 53%

People earn over $200K: 55%

White college Grads: 58%

By contrast:

Those not attending college: 42%

The significant disparity in opinion by age is most likely attributed to the fact that young people are more likely to have peers that are openly gay, than those over 65. Gay marriage will continue to gain acceptance, as those who opposed gay marriage out of ignorance and fear, will come to realize as more gay couples marry, that they have no reason to fear gay marriage.

[Jaybear]

While we are on the topic, here is an insightful comment from a former NOM strategist.

I soon realized that there I was surrounded by hateful people. Once you understand the great difference between civil marriage and holy marriage, there is not one valid reason to forbid the former from same-sex couples, and all that is left to protect is the latter. Indeed Christians and Catholics alike are well within their right to demand that holy matrimony, a sacrament and service performed by the Church and recognized by the Church, remains between a man and a woman as their faith would dictate. However, that has nothing to do with civil marriage, performed and recognized by the State in accordance with state law. My name is Louis J. Marinelli, a conservative-Republican and I now support full civil marriage equality. The constitution calls for nothing less."

[Mordecai]

Statistically, people in this country under 30 are part of the "dumbest generation." On all measures, they show lower intelligence and critical thinking.

I've pointed this out before, but it's worth pointing out again. The reason educated people in the U.S. (but not France or Japan) tend to reject traditional marriage is because they also tend to not be religious. In the U.S., the non-religious also measure social status according to how against tradition they are. They also are more prone to nihilism. Between the "I hate religion and tradition" and the "who cares(?)" attitude, they do tend to vote for gay-marriage dogma.

But in France, religion is so irrelevant, the anti-religion bandwagon isn't as influential. Their young people are also much better educated, so they're less likely to be influenced by your ridiculously manipulative rhetoric, e.g. "We're on the right side of history," and, "Everyone that disagrees does so out of fear and hate!" So despite France's secularism, they also arrived at the same philosophical conclusion educated Americans should be arriving at, which is that real marriage is unique enough that it is worth reserving a few arbitrary phonemes for it. (After all, it's only responsible for creating all of civilization as well as its maintenance in all of history).

We might also keep in mind that Mormons buck the trend of becoming less religious with more education, in most cases. The fact is, with more education, you tend to be more active in the Church of Jesus Christ, which also means that our correlation for supporting gay-marriage dogma is also reversed from your statistics. How did that happen, if your gay-marriage dogma is for Smart people? And why do the French and Japanese reject gay-marriage dogma? Hmmmmm...

I soon realized that there I was surrounded by hateful people...

That's what I realized, when we stood up for prop. 8 in California, except it wasn't prop. 8 supporters that were hate filled. Quite the contrary. The Left despises us for our different (more logical) political position. That explains why they threw a rock and hit a pregnant woman in my ward, why they threw urine on a prop. 8 supporter in Oakland, why the tried to drive customers away from small businesses, broke the law by stealing prop. 8 signs, etc. It was ugly. Don't tell me prop. 8 supporters are hate filled.

I stood with them in support of marriage, and there wasn't the slightest bit of hate spewed back at the screaming, expletive-filled and hateful treatment we received, while we held signs that read things like "Prop. 8 = Parental Rights," and, "Yes on 8!" Such hate filled signs, right? We are just monsters!

[Jaybear]

Statistically, people in this country under 30 are part of the "dumbest generation." On all measures, they show lower intelligence and critical thinking.

Assuming that is true, you have still not connected that fact to their overwhelming support of gay marriage.

I've pointed this out before, but it's worth pointing out again. The reason educated people in the U.S. (but not France or Japan) tend to reject traditional marriage is because they also tend to not be religious.

So the more educated the person is, the more likely they are to reject the truth claims of organized religion.

Those who reject the truth claims of organized religion are more likely to support civil marriage equality.

Tell me something I don't know.

But in France, religion is so irrelevant, the anti-religion bandwagon isn't as influential. Their young people are also much better educated, so they're less likely to be influenced by your ridiculously manipulative rhetoric, e.g. "We're on the right side of history," and, "Everyone that disagrees does so out of fear and hate!" So despite France's secularism, they also arrived at the same philosophical conclusion educated Americans should be arriving at, which is that real marriage is unique enough that it is worth reserving a few arbitrary phonemes for it.

CFR. According to Wiki:

A 2004 poll by ELLE found that 64% of those polled in France supported same-sex marriage and 49% supported adoption by same-sex couples.[19]

[Mordecai]

Assuming that is true, you have still not connected that fact to their overwhelming support of gay marriage.

It's the demographic AXE body spray targets. They're impressionable.

So the more educated the person is, the more likely they are to reject the truth claims of organized religion.

Those who reject the truth claims of organized religion are more likely to support civil marriage equality.

Yes. Unless they're Mormon. Then the statistics are reversed. So how did that happen if gay-marriage dogma is for Smart people? Mormons are among the most educated groups in the nation, with the highest number, per capita, of scientists. But we overwhelmingly reject gay-marriage dogma.

CFR. According to Wiki:

They've rejected it already. The fact is, they have adopted civil unions instead, a few years ago. That they supported it in 2004 is probably not a good measure, since they have had civil unions since then for a long time. I suspect the court rulings and the debate, wherein real marriage was deemed to be unique enough to deserve its own set of phonemes, have trickled down. I can't prove it, but you can't prove 2004 is still relevant after all the court rulings and such.

The fact that the "Smart" people don't think heterosexual unions are important enough to warrant assigning them a unique set of phonemes suggests they just aren't that smart. Japan has the right idea, and they are well educated as well. Much more so than Americans.

A January 2011 TNS-Sofres poll found that 58% of respondents supported same-sex marriage, with 35% opposed. Support was 74% among those under 35 years. 49% supported adoption rights for same-sex couples.

In France, support among the general population is in favor of same-sex marriage, while only 49% support adoption rights. Interesting. So "gay marriage" support has decreased significantly, but support of adoption is really low (probably due to the French adoption of the U.N. children's rights legislation). Sadly, we do again see impressionable young people being brain washed by the far left, though. I mean, 74%? It's clear that if it were not for that, "gay marriage" would not be close to 58%.

[semlogo]

How about, (1 Cor. 11:11) Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Is that canonized?

Sure. It has nothing to do with gays, and Paul remained single, but it's canonized.

OR how about, (D&C 132:19) And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Is that canonized?

Yes, but we don't practice polygamy. Again, not seeing the relevance.

[semlogo]

In accepting no other evidence and strictly limiting the evidence to the material that you provided, and using this to impose the non-speculative conclusion that the “dramatic biological differences between gay and straight men and women” constitute alternative genders that in turn warrant the acceptance and institutionalization of homosexual behavior as morally legitimate, we must also hold that the “dramatic biological differences” attendant to any other purportedly taboo behavior also necessitates the conclusion that these are also morally legitimate alternatives.

So when we compare the dramatic biological differences between people with addictive/aberrant/criminal orientation or behavior of various kinds (especially those who are genetically-determined or predisposed to such) and their more behaviorally acceptable counterparts, we must accept that they are acting in a way that simply expresses God’s desire for His children’s happiness. Doctrinally, our fallen deviation from paradisaical perfection is the culminating expression of God’s highest ambition for us, and serves as our standard of hope.

True, my concept of third/fourth genders is only my personal interpretation of evidence. But saying that women think their children gay is not based on any evidence at all.

[semlogo]

Yeah, because young people have been indoctrinated via the schools and media. Look at the states. If you're under thirty, not only are you part of the "dumbest generation," but you support "gay marriage" by a wide margin. People that are older than that, more often than not, see through the incredibly arrogant "history is on our side" rhetoric.

You'd probably find similar statistics in the 60s about support for black rights.

But don't forget, those under 30 are the chosen generation. NOT the dumbest generation.

[Vance]

Sure. It has nothing to do with gays, and Paul remained single, but it's canonized.

CFR that Paul remained single.

Yes, but we don't practice polygamy. Again, not seeing the relevance.

You really think that D&C 132 is ONLY about polygamy? That is has NOTHING to do with monogamist marriages?

Really?

Well, it is rather obvious that you are only interested in the opinions of people who agree with you. You asked a question. I gave you an answer. I supported my answer with scripture. If you don't want to see a different point of view perhaps you should say that up front.

[semlogo]

CFR that Paul remained single.

You really think that D&C 132 is ONLY about polygamy? That is has NOTHING to do with monogamist marriages?

Really?

Well, it is rather obvious that you are only interested in the opinions of people who agree with you. You asked a question. I gave you an answer. I supported my answer with scripture. If you don't want to see a different point of view perhaps you should say that up front.

1 Cor 7:8

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

D&C 132 was written about polygamy, but the parts about sealing apply to monogamous marriages as well, not to mention family sealings. In any case, I fail to see what point you're trying to make. How does this relate to homosexuality?

[Jaybear]

It's the demographic AXE body spray targets. They're impressionable.

For an impressionable group, they do not seem very impressed with the arguments your side is making.

Yes. Unless they're Mormon. Then the statistics are reversed. So how did that happen if gay-marriage dogma is for Smart people?Mormons are among the most educated groups in the nation, with the highest number, per capita, of scientists. But we overwhelmingly reject gay-marriage dogma.

CFR. Per capita in accountants or MMM moguls I would buy. BYU has a very nice accounting program.

There are about as many Jewish Americans as Mormon Americans. Yet, by contrast "of American Nobel Prize winners, 37 percent have been Jewish Americans (19 times the percentage of Jews in the population)."

How many of these Mormon scientists have won a Nobel Prize?

They've rejected it already.The fact is, they have adopted civil unions instead, a few years ago. That they supported it in 2004 is probably not a good measure, since they have had civil unions since then for a long time. I suspect the court rulings and the debate, wherein real marriage was deemed to be unique enough to deserve its own set of phonemes, have trickled down. I can't prove it, but you can't prove 2004 is still relevant after all the court rulings and such.

75% of France is Catholic, and 10% of the population is Muslim.

To prove your point, you cite a poll which shows that 58 % of French support gay marriage, which is higher than in the US, yet you claim that the French have rejected gay marriage.

There is wide disparity between your claims and the facts.

[CV75]

True, my concept of third/fourth genders is only my personal interpretation of evidence. But saying that women think their children gay is not based on any evidence at all.

I must say I got quite a chuckle out of attributing the “saying that women think their children gay” in light of my posts #185, #202 and #226! To review, I observed that androgen in the womb can be brought about by the mother’s mental or emotional stress, which you had already asserted in #15 is a biological factor in homosexuality! LOL. I'm just not going to get into it again!