Wiggle room for changing church teachings on homosexuality

[krose]

People need to just stop with the NAMBLA nonsense. It's ridiculous and offensive.

The possibility that a majority -- no, even a measurable minority -- of human society will ever countenance the sexual abuse of children by adults is somewhere between nil and none.

Anyone who brings that up as part of a slippery-slope argument should be flogged, or at least severely shunned.

[CV75]

Very interesting. It doesn't seem relevant to this topic, but it's definitely a fascinating idea.

It is relevant to the original statements made about DNA's role in driving sexual thoughts and behavior, and the correlation between sexual orientation and measurements of brain and finger anatomy. It demonstrates that DNA may not only drive the thoughts, but that thoughts may also drive the DNA. Sexual orientation and the correlating anatomy and physiology may be attributable to and even malleable by one's thoughts. This is where the Church's teachings are quite relevant.

[LeSellers]

I have a hard time believing that pedophilia could be accepted under any circumstances. Pedophilia, when acted upon, always involved victimization of children, by definition.

Most pedophiles and all NAMBLA members disagree. They believe they are doing children a favor by their acts. And to a man (and a woman), they approve.

Almost universally, everyone else rejects that, no matter their religious affiliation or lack thereof. Let's keep this reality-based.

Your original statement was that you thought that pedophilia would not be "accepted under any circumstances". I raised a circumstance where it not only could be, but is.

To keep this "real", let's not forget that it was not too many years ago that homosexuality was thought such an abomination that it would never be accepted under any circumstances, yet here we are not only debating whether homosexuals should call their unions "marriage", but, with rare exception, not even questioning whether they ought to be allowed to adopt innocent children, parade their lewdness in public, champion their "lifestyle" in legislatures.

If NAMBLA does the same thing Queer Nation and ACT UP! have done, and I submit that Satan will so inspire them, I may live long enough to see this perversion become "mainstream", as well as the other.

Lehi

[Vance]

You original statement was that you thought that pedophilia would not be "accepted under any circumstances". I raised a circumstance where it not only could, be but is.

To keep this "real", let's not forget that it was not too many years ago that homosexuality was thought such an abomination that it would never be accepted under any circumstances, yet here we are not only debating whether homosexuals should call their unions "marriage", but, with rare exception, not even questioning whether they ought to be allowed to adopt innocent children, parade their lewdness in public, champion their "lifestyle" in legislatures.

If NAMBLA does the same thing Queer Nation and ACT UP! have done, and I submit that Satan will so inspire them, I may live long enough to see this perversion become "mainstream", as well as the other.

Lehi

[Nathair/|\]

You original statement was that you thought that pedophilia would not be "accepted under any circumstances". I raised a circumstance where it not only could, be but is.

To keep this "real", let's not forget that it was not too many years ago that homosexuality was thought such an abomination that it would never be accepted under any circumstances, yet here we are not only debating whether homosexuals should call their unions "marriage", but, with rare exception, not even questioning whether they ought to be allowed to adopt innocent children, parade their lewdness in public, champion their "lifestyle" in legislatures.

If NAMBLA does the same thing Queer Nation and ACT UP! have done, and I submit that Satan will so inspire them, I may live long enough to see this perversion become "mainstream", as well as the other.

Lehi

I can't prove it immediately, but I used to have a copy of Musicophillia by Oliver Sacks. It's a popular science text (like the works of Stephen Hawking, for example) on music and the brain. In a chapter on kuru, he mentions that one of the customs of the Fore tribe from Papua New Guinea was that young boys would provide sexual favors to adult men as an everyday part of their culture. I wonder if any research has been done on how that affected their mental/emotional health.

Certainly, I find the practice to be among the most vile things a human can do, but I think the question is relevant to the above posts.

Yours under the nauseated oaks,

Nathair /|\

I can't believe a situation came up that would remind me of that. Has anyone seen my brain bleach?

[semlogo]

Well, reproduction is ONE aspect.

Do you not know of others?

No, I don't.

If it's reproduction, then either way gays are in trouble in your view, because they've been advised by the church not to marry same sex. So either way, they can't reproduce whether they follow the church counsel or whether they have gay relationships.

[semlogo]

It is relevant to the original statements made about DNA's role in driving sexual thoughts and behavior, and the correlation between sexual orientation and measurements of brain and finger anatomy. It demonstrates that DNA may not only drive the thoughts, but that thoughts may also drive the DNA. Sexual orientation and the correlating anatomy and physiology may be attributable to and even malleable by one's thoughts. This is where the Church's teachings are quite relevant.

At the very least the differences in finger anatomy manifest anywhere from in the womb to infancy/toddlerhood. It might be the same for other differences, I don't know. Do you think fetuses are having gay thoughts?

Listening to gays describe their experiences, they didn't talk themselves into being gay. They felt different all along, even from a very young age, but didn't know why. Then when they get into puberty, they find themselves attracted to the same sex, and often very much wish they didn't feel that way, especially if they're raised in a conservative religious environment. So again, that doesn't fit the "thoughts changing genes" model you've hypothesized for gay biological differences. The thoughts seem to come later.

[semlogo]

You original statement was that you thought that pedophilia would not be "accepted under any circumstances". I raised a circumstance where it not only could, be but is.

To keep this "real", let's not forget that it was not too many years ago that homosexuality was thought such an abomination that it would never be accepted under any circumstances, yet here we are not only debating whether homosexuals should call their unions "marriage", but, with rare exception, not even questioning whether they ought to be allowed to adopt innocent children, parade their lewdness in public, champion their "lifestyle" in legislatures.

If NAMBLA does the same thing Queer Nation and ACT UP! have done, and I submit that Satan will so inspire them, I may live long enough to see this perversion become "mainstream", as well as the other.

Lehi

Obviously, I meant accepted by society at large. If I was unclear, I apologize.

It was not too many years ago that mixed-race marriage was thought such an abomination that it would never be accepted under any circumstances.

Your slippery slope argument falls apart because mixed-marriage, like same sex marriage and relationships, is victimless. To echo Darin, the more progressive/liberal a country becomes, the less tolerance it has for victimization of the powerless. In fact, as we've gotten more liberal, we've had even less tolerances for things like grown men marrying teenage girls, which used to be less of a big deal. Now it's practically equated with child molestation. That's the trend - not the other way around.

[Vance]

No, I don't.

How long have you been a member? Do you pay attention to conference? Read the scriptures? The proclamation on the family?

If it's reproduction, then either way gays are in trouble in your view, because they've been advised by the church not to marry same sex. So either way, they can't reproduce whether they follow the church counsel or whether they have gay relationships.

What, exactly, is preventing them from marrying (the real meaning of the word) and engaging in God sanctioned reproduction?

[CV75]

The thoughts seem to come later.

It isn't necessarily only one or the other coming first or later. Chosen behaviors can influence DNA just as DNA influences behavior. Someone posted how the hormonal environment of the womb can contribute to homosexual orientation. The mother's thoughts can affect her hormonal activity and thus the nature of her unborn child. It has also been posted that despite the cause of someone's sexual orientation, inasmuch as he is accountable, he has control over his decisions and sexual behavior (the next step being orientation). As far as the Church is concerned, additional knowledge from neuroplastic and epigenetic study seems to support the role of faith (thought) in controlling behavior and subsequently orientation, and eventually even the anatomy and physiology associated/correlated with the behavior. Of course the role of faith in causing a physical manifestation borders on the miraculous, which also supports the Church's teachings.

[giantfly665]

i, for once, am terrified at this ideas.

there has been a deep and long problematic in our church. one that has been in our throats for too much a while, making us choke and spit on the floor until we have to clean it. after a long and tiresome talk the other night with our local pastor, we have agreed that the idea of accepting homosexuality is horrible. my son, that initiallly agreed with such an idea, was inmediateloy submitted to the local pastor's hpouse were he was severely punished for one full hour.

[giantfly665]

also, chuck norris.

[Daniel2]

It isn't necessarily only one or the other coming first or later. Chosen behaviors can influence DNA just as DNA influences behavior. Someone posted how the hormonal environment of the womb can contribute to homosexual orientation. The mother's thoughts can affect her hormonal activity and thus the nature of her unborn child. It has also been posted that despite the cause of someone's sexual orientation, inasmuch as he is accountable, he has control over his decisions and sexual behavior (the next step being orientation). As far as the Church is concerned, additional knowledge from neuroplastic and epigenetic study seems to support the role of faith (thought) in controlling behavior and subsequently orientation, and eventually even the anatomy and physiology associated/correlated with the behavior. Of course the role of faith in causing a physical manifestation borders on the miraculous, which also supports the Church's teachings.

I haven't had time to review all the links you sent, except for the first one. I note that it said that relaxation responses could alter gene expression. That is radically different from "thoughts can change one's DNA," and there's a HUGE leap to thoughts alterning one's sexual orientation--a wide divide that I'm glad you can recognize, in calling it nothing short of miraculous. Given that you view that such a miracle is possible, I'd imagine that any science behind the notion that certain aspects of human identity are a reality that can't be altered probably isn't that significant or impactful in shaping your view...? When one's belief is that miracles can trump any scientific reality, who needs to feel constrained by biological "limits"?

Darin

[Calm]

If it does turn out that pedophiles have some sort of genetic or other biological predisposition that is beyond their control, we would still consider that maladaptive, as opposed to homosexuality, which is neutral.

Am curious as to how you would determine that one genetic or biological predisposition was maladaptive but another one was neutral as this seems a value conclusion and therefore subjective?

[Calm]

i, for once, am terrified at this ideas.

there has been a deep and long problematic in our church. one that has been in our throats for too much a while, making us choke and spit on the floor until we have to clean it. after a long and tiresome talk the other night with our local pastor, we have agreed that the idea of accepting homosexuality is horrible. my son, that initiallly agreed with such an idea, was inmediateloy submitted to the local pastor's hpouse were he was severely punished for one full hour.

And what church is this?

[Nathair/|\]

Obviously, I meant accepted by society at large. If I was unclear, I apologize.

It was not too many years ago that mixed-race marriage was thought such an abomination that it would never be accepted under any circumstances.

Your slippery slope argument falls apart because mixed-marriage, like same sex marriage and relationships, is victimless. To echo Darin, the more progressive/liberal a country becomes, the less tolerance it has for victimization of the powerless. In fact, as we've gotten more liberal, we've had even less tolerances for things like grown men marrying teenage girls, which used to be less of a big deal. Now it's practically equated with child molestation. That's the trend - not the other way around.

Did you see my post on a "society at large' that did accept pedophilia as a normal, accepted part of their culture?

[TAO]

You don't seem to have understood my proposition. They're not another gender because of what they do. They're another gender because they have a mixture of female and male physical characteristics, such as brain make-up, finger length ratio, inner ear differences, etc.

The differences are factual. The idea of them being a third/fourth gender is only my opinion and interpretation of the data.

Your autism does not give you a mix of male and female physical characteristics.

Sorry if this response is brief, I am playing via phone.

Coming as someone who has had Asperger's Syndrome for his life, I would like to tell you that you are wrong about Asperger's not mixing male and female traits. One example of many... have you ever wondered why I am obcessed with cats? More about this later. But no, male and female characteristics are in every person.

[Daniel2]

Did you see my post on a "society at large' that did accept pedophilia as a normal, accepted part of their culture?

This post wasn't directed at me, Nathair, but I noticed the post you referred to. It isn't the first time I've heard of the culture you mentioned.

The example you raised (of adults "teaching" or "inducting" children into a cult of adulthood through sexual behaviors or other sexual adult/child rites of passage) is an example found in a primitive culture. It's existence actually demonstrates what I was suggesting earlier--that the more civilized, enlightened, and (to use Semlogo's very appropriate wording) liberal a nation becomes, it becomes more and more aggressive in it's desire to protect the powerless--especially children and their sexuality. It seems likely that as long as humans have existed, pedophiles have been preying on the powerless. Modern societies are moving away from endorsing that mentality, which makes victims out of it's children, not regressing to condone it. Unlike to trend to tolerate and accept consenting same-sex relationships, the trend by far is to condemn the victimization of adult/child-sexual relationships--of which both notions are endorsed by ongiong advances in medicine, psychology, and pediatrics.

Even though it certainly is an example of a social community in the past that has endorsed pedophilic relationships, rather than being an example illustrating how society could evolve to endorse them, your example serves to illustrate my point that such cultural oddities are reminants of a primitive and barbaric mindset.

My view,

Darin

[Daniel2]

Sorry if this response is brief, I am playing via phone.

Coming as someone who has had Asperger's Syndrome for his life, I would like to tell you that you are wrong about Asperger's not mixing male and female traits. One example of many... have you ever wondered why I am obcessed with cats? More about this later. But no, male and female characteristics are in every person.

TAO,

I'm sorry to hear of your struggles with Asperger's Syndrome, a condition I have become familiar with due to acquaintances who share the same condition. It is a challenging situation, and I'm glad to hear that it sounds as if you're making the best.

On an unrelated side note: I don't think an attraction to or obession with cats is considered to be a male vs. female trait.

Darin

[semlogo]

How long have you been a member? Do you pay attention to conference? Read the scriptures? The proclamation on the family?

I know of several teachings/opinions to the effect that you're referring to, but no doctrine.

What, exactly, is preventing them from marrying (the real meaning of the word) and engaging in God sanctioned reproduction?

Well, what first springs to mind is prop 8.

But many gay people do get married to opposite sex people. Their marriages are usually disastrous, (imagine a straight man trying to fake a relationship with a gay man) which is why the church has counseled them not to get married.

[semlogo]

It isn't necessarily only one or the other coming first or later. Chosen behaviors can influence DNA just as DNA influences behavior. Someone posted how the hormonal environment of the womb can contribute to homosexual orientation. The mother's thoughts can affect her hormonal activity and thus the nature of her unborn child. It has also been posted that despite the cause of someone's sexual orientation, inasmuch as he is accountable, he has control over his decisions and sexual behavior (the next step being orientation). As far as the Church is concerned, additional knowledge from neuroplastic and epigenetic study seems to support the role of faith (thought) in controlling behavior and subsequently orientation, and eventually even the anatomy and physiology associated/correlated with the behavior. Of course the role of faith in causing a physical manifestation borders on the miraculous, which also supports the Church's teachings.

I don't think there is any evidence that mother's thoughts cause the androgen surge.

[semlogo]

Am curious as to how you would determine that one genetic or biological predisposition was maladaptive but another one was neutral as this seems a value conclusion and therefore subjective?

A simple evaluation of direct harm caused by the trait.

[semlogo]

Did you see my post on a "society at large' that did accept pedophilia as a normal, accepted part of their culture?

Oh yes, several primitive societies have accepted it (usually based on myths about virility, rites of passage, etc), no modernized, progressive societies.

[semlogo]

Sorry if this response is brief, I am playing via phone.

Coming as someone who has had Asperger's Syndrome for his life, I would like to tell you that you are wrong about Asperger's not mixing male and female traits. One example of many... have you ever wondered why I am obcessed with cats? More about this later. But no, male and female characteristics are in every person.

I'd be interested in hearing more - I know little about your condition.

[Nathair/|\]

This post wasn't directed at me, Nathair, but I noticed the post you referred to. It isn't the first time I've heard of the culture you mentioned.

The example you raised (of adults "teaching" or "inducting" children into a cult of adulthood through sexual behaviors or other sexual adult/child rites of passage) is an example found in a primitive culture. It's existence actually demonstrates what I was suggesting earlier--that the more civilized, enlightened, and (to use Semlogo's very appropriate wording) liberal a nation becomes, it becomes more and more aggressive in it's desire to protect the powerless--especially children and their sexuality. It seems likely that as long as humans have existed, pedophiles have been preying on the powerless. Modern societies are moving away from endorsing that mentality, which makes victims out of it's children, not regressing to condone it. Unlike to trend to tolerate and accept consenting same-sex relationships, the trend by far is to condemn the victimization of adult/child-sexual relationships--of which both notions are endorsed by ongiong advances in medicine, psychology, and pediatrics.

Even though it certainly is an example of a social community in the past that has endorsed pedophilic relationships, rather than being an example illustrating how society could evolve to endorse them, your example serves to illustrate my point that such cultural oddities are reminants of a primitive and barbaric mindset.

My view,

Darin

Thank you, Darin. Your post is erudite and rational as always. Though I disagree with you, I have the highest respect for you. My main purpose was to challenge the absolutism in Semilogo's claim. I try to only make absolute claims when I have very good reason.

I vaguely seem to remember institutional pederasty in Da Vinci's Italy, a very civilized society; but I could be wrong about that. I don't care to research it right now. Ganymede also came to mind, but I think he was just old enough to count as an adult.

Oh yes, several primitive societies have accepted it (usually based on myths about virility, rites of passage, etc), no modernized, progressive societies.

It seems to me that you are shifting the goalposts just a bit? Maybe? Fair enough. If I am right about Italy, I hit that target, too.

Yours under the flexible oaks,

Nathair /|\