Wiggle room for changing church teachings on homosexuality

[semlogo]

But far less fallible in regard to declaring doctrine/policy/practice than you.

So . . . between the two of you, I should question his statements?

Pres. Kimball never received a revelation on the subject, so he has no advantage over me. We hold the same priesthood.

In fact, President Kimball thought that homosexuality is caused by masturbation. Obviously that's not the case, and it's clear he really didn't know anything about the subject. No offense to President Kimball, but that's the truth - just like Joseph Smith didn't know anything about, say, post-postpartum depression.

[semlogo]

Not an accurate description at all.

What the church dropped was the statement that the Lehites were the "principle ancestors" of the American Indians.

Which, of course, is irrelevant to the fact that "Lamanites" meant and means NON-Nephites, and does include the NON-Lehite American Indians.

BTW, I am a native American.

Same thing.

[Daniel2]

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on you.

You are the one that is saying that they don't mean what they say, SO prove it.

Really, Vance? You think quoting a list of scripture citacions is good enough to "prove" that they refer, specifically, to homosexuality...? And you want us to disprove it...?

Seems absurdly obvious that none of the scriptural citacions you listed from The Book of Mormon even mention same-sex actions or relationships, at all--so here's the proof:

1 Nephi 3: 7

[7] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

2 Nephi 2: 27

[27] Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

2 Nephi 9: 20-28, 29, 31-34, 35-37, 38-39, 40

[20] O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

[21] And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

[22] And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

[23] And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

[24] And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

[25] Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

[26] For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.

[27] But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

[28] O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not.

[29] But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

[31] And wo unto the deaf that will not hear; for they shall perish.

[32] Wo unto the blind that will not see; for they shall perish also.

[33] Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.

[34] Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

[35] Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die.

[36] Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.

[37] Yea, wo unto those that worship idols, for the devil of all devils delighteth in them.

[38] And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

[39] O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.

[40] O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.

2 Nephi 10: 23

[23] Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves -- to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.

2 Nephi 15: 15, 19-21

[15] And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled.

[19] That say: Let him make speed, hasten his work, that we may see it; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it.

[20] Wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[21] Wo unto the wise in their own eyes and prudent in their own sight!

2 Nephi 20: 3, 15, 27, 33

[3] And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?

[15] Shall the ax boast itself against him that heweth therewith? Shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? As if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself as if it were no wood!

[27] And it shall come to pass in that day that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

[33] Behold, the Lord, the Lord of Hosts shall lop the bough with terror; and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down; and the haughty shall be humbled.

2 Nephi 26: 22

[22] And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.

2 Nephi 27: 3

[3] And all the nations that fight against Zion, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision; yea, it shall be unto them, even as unto a hungry man which dreameth, and behold he eateth but he awaketh and his soul is empty; or like unto a thirsty man which dreameth, and behold he drinketh but he awaketh and behold he is faint, and his soul hath appetite; yea, even so shall the multitude of all the nations be that fight against Mount Zion.

2 Nephi 33: 3-5

[3] But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them; and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.

[4] And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.

[5] And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.

Mosiah 16: 11-12

[11] If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation --

[12] Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

Mosiah 26: 35-36

[35] And whosoever repented of their sins and did confess them, them he did number among the people of the church;

[36] And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out.

Alma 3: 26-27

[26] And in one year were thousands and tens of thousands of souls sent to the eternal world, that they might reap their rewards according to their works, whether they were good or whether they were bad, to reap eternal happiness or eternal misery, according to the spirit which they listed to obey, whether it be a good spirit or a bad one.

[27] For every man receiveth wages of him whom he listeth to obey, and this according to the words of the spirit of prophecy; therefore let it be according to the truth. And thus endeth the fifth year of the reign of the judges.

Alma 5: 17-21

[17] Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say -- Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth -- and that he will save you?

[18] Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?

[19] I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

[20] I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

[21] I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

Alma 12: 34

[34] Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.

Alma 41: 5-10

[5] The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

[6] And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

[7] These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

[8] Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

[9] And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.

[10] Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

Helaman 13: 38

[38] But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head.

Ether 2: 15

[15] And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands.

Moroni 7: 12-14

[12] Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

[13] But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

[14] Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

Moroni 9: 4

[4] Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them.

Now, can you point out anywhere that the above text refers specifically to homosexuality or same-sex actions or relationships?

(Still working on compiling the other citacions on the other Standard Works).

BTW, I am a gay American.

Darin

[semlogo]

Really, Vance? You think quoting a list of scripture citacions is good enough to "prove" that they refer, specifically, to homosexuality...? And you want us to disprove it...?

Seems absurdly obvious that none of the scriptural citacions you listed from The Book of Mormon even mention same-sex actions or relationships, at all--so here's the proof:

Now, can you point out anywhere that the above text refers specifically to homosexuality or same-sex actions or relationships?

(Still working on compiling the other citacions on the other Standard Works).

BTW, I am a gay American.

Darin

Thanks for this, Darin. Anyone can just shoot off a list of scriptures without posting the text.

[Mordecai]

A shallow analysis like that can only yield shallow results.

Shallow in that words mean what they mean instead of what you pretend they mean? Yeah, I'm pretty shallow.

[Daniel2]

Moving on to other Standard Works:

It seems absurdly obvious that none of the the scriptural citacions you also listed from The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price even mention same-sex actions or relationships, at all--so here's the proof:

D&C 1: 3, 31-32, 33

[3] And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

[31] For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

[32] Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

[33] And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

D&C 18: 6, 11

[6] Behold, the world is ripening in iniquity; and it must needs be that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance, both the cGentiles and also the house of Israel.

[11] For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him.

D&C 19: 15-18

[15] Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

[16] For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

[17] But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

[18] Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

D&C 42: 22

[22]Thou shalt alove thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt bcleave unto her and none else.

D&C 58: 42-43

[42] Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

43] By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

D&C 62: 3

[3] Nevertheless, ye are blessed, for the testimony which ye have borne is recorded in heaven for the angels to look upon; and they rejoice over you, and your sins are forgiven you.

D&C 104: 5-6

[5] For I, the Lord, have decreed in my heart, that inasmuch as any man belonging to the order shall be found a transgressor, or, in other words, shall break the covenant with which ye are bound, he shall be cursed in his life, and shall be trodden down by whom I will;

6] For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in these things—

D&C 132: 52

[52] And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

Moses 4: 4

[4] And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Abraham 5: 18

[18] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

Now, can you point out anywhere that the above text refers specifically to homosexuality or same-sex actions or relationships?

So, Vance, once you point out the specifc examples of homosexuality in all of the above references you listed from The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, I'll be happy to post the other citacions from The Bible for further discussion, as well.

Darin

[semlogo]

Shallow in that words mean what they mean instead of what you pretend they mean? Yeah, I'm pretty shallow.

Shallow in that you didn't investigate the original Greek nuances.

[Vance]

Same thing.

A clear indication that you aren't paying attention.

[Mordecai]

Shallow in that you didn't investigate the original Greek nuances.

Okay, Greek master, teach us about the Greek nuances. Be my guest. You just made up what the verses said to fit your own agenda. I looked at 4 different translations from people who actually know Greek. No one mentions anything that even remotely implies prostitution. But apparently, you've got some special privileged information on what the scriptures really mean. Right.

CFR

[semlogo]

A clear indication that you aren't paying attention.

No, just that I wasn't interested in splitting hairs.

[Vance]

Pres. Kimball never received a revelation on the subject, so he has no advantage over me. We hold the same priesthood.

You don't hold the same keys.

In fact, President Kimball thought that homosexuality is caused by masturbation.

I doubt that is an accurate description of what President Kimball actually believed.

Obviously that's not the case, and it's clear he really didn't know anything about the subject.

I suspect that those that engage in homosexual activity also engage in masturbation, and this is the correlation President Kimball understood.

You are welcome to back up your bald assertion if you like.

No offense to President Kimball, but that's the truth - just like Joseph Smith didn't know anything about, say, post-postpartum depression.

Irrelevant. They both understood PERFECTLY the spiritual ramifications of homosexual behavior. Something that you are missing, for what ever reason.

[semlogo]

Okay, Greek master, teach us about the Greek nuances. Be my guest. You just made up what the verses said to fit your own agenda. I looked at 4 different translations from people who actually know Greek. No one mentions anything that even remotely implies prostitution. But apparently, you've got some special privileged information on what the scriptures really mean. Right.

CFR

Knock yourself out. This is an exhaustive treatment of the subject:

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/homosexuality.html

[Vance]

Really, Vance? You think quoting a list of scripture citacions is good enough to "prove" that they refer, specifically, to homosexuality...? And you want us to disprove it...?

Seems absurdly obvious that none of the scriptural citacions you listed from The Book of Mormon even mention same-sex actions or relationships, at all--so here's the proof:

Now, can you point out anywhere that the above text refers specifically to homosexuality or same-sex actions or relationships?

(Still working on compiling the other citacions on the other Standard Works).

BTW, I am a gay American.

Darin

I didn't post the list, nor did I claim anything about the list other than that I KNEW you guys would dismiss them.

2 Nephi 2: 27

[27] Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

There is homosexual behavior right there. The fact that it isn't specifically mentioned isn't relevant, neither is adultery nor murder.

So, like I said, telling us that they don't mean what they say.

[semlogo]

You don't hold the same keys.

I doubt that is an accurate description of what President Kimball actually believed.

I suspect that those that engage in homosexual activity also engage in masturbation, and this is the correlation President Kimball understood.

You are welcome to back up your bald assertion if you like.

Irrelevant. They both understood PERFECTLY the spiritual ramifications of homosexual behavior. Something that you are missing, for what ever reason.

In absence of a specific revelation on the subject, the prophet is at the same level as you or I. All they can express is their opinion.

Have you ever read The Miracle of Forgiveness? There's a reason why there's a disclaimer on it that it's not official doctrine:

"What is more, it [masturbation] too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."

That's not how homosexuality works, but that was his opinion. He was wrong. I hope you're not one of those inerrantists who thinks every word a prophet said is straight from the lips of God.

[semlogo]

I didn't post the list, nor did I claim anything about the list other than that I KNEW you guys would dismiss them.

2 Nephi 2: 27

[27] Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

There is homosexual behavior right there. The fact that it isn't specifically mentioned isn't relevant, neither is adultery nor murder.

So, like I said, telling us that they don't mean what they say.

There is nothing in that text referring to homosexuality. Please don't twist the words of scripture.

[Mordecai]

Knock yourself out. This is an exhaustive treatment of the subject:... http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/homosexuality.html

Well, I knocked myself out so hard, I discovered your own source contradicts you. It says it "almost certainly is talking about homosexuality," adding only that the chapter's overarching topic is idolotry. It never mentions prostitution and never suggests that the Greek translation secretly says something about prostitution as you suggest. That said, the site does have some interesting arguments. But they're not your arguments. Perhaps you should've gone to this website as your actual source, instead of just claiming the Greek refers to prostitution. What hogwash.

By the way, I would say it is certainly talking about homosexuality. Not almost at all. It's quite obvious. Well, unless you read the semlogo translation of the Bible, wherein Romans 1:27 says, "Prostitution is wrong. Amen."

[Vance]

2 Nephi 9: 20-28, 29, 31-34, 35-37, 38-39, 40

[20] O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

[21] And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

[22] And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

[23] And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

[24] And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

[25] Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

[26] For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.

[27] But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

[28] O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not.

[29] But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

[31] And wo unto the deaf that will not hear; for they shall perish.

[32] Wo unto the blind that will not see; for they shall perish also.

[33] Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.

[34] Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

[35] Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die.

[36] Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.

[37] Yea, wo unto those that worship idols, for the devil of all devils delighteth in them.

[38] And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

[39] O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.

[40] O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.

Those verse referring to homosexual behavior are bolded, those that describe people unwilling to acknowledge it are colored blue.

The bottom line is that ANY scripture that condemns sexual sins, ARE CONDEMNING homoSEXUAL SINS!

[Vance]

Well, I knocked myself out so hard, I discovered your own source contradicts you. It says it "almost certainly is talking about homosexuality," adding only that the chapter's overarching topic is idolotry. It never mentions prostitution and never suggests that the Greek translation secretly says something about prostitution as you suggest.

WHY !!! am I not surprised?

Well it is WAY PASSED OBVIOUS that continuing this discussion is a waste of time. So unless I see something of interest worth commenting on I am done.

[Vance]

There is nothing in that text referring to homosexuality. Please don't twist the words of scripture.

Actually, to say that those verses aren't referring to homosexual behavior is to twist them. So have at it.

[Daniel2]

Actually, to say that those verses aren't referring to homosexual behavior is to twist them. So have at it.

All of those scriptures also refer to the behavior of wearing more than one pair of earrings, because that's what a modern prophet taught us. To say they aren't referring to multiple-earring-wearing behavior is to twist them. So have at it.

Darin

[semlogo]

Actually, to say that those verses aren't referring to homosexual behavior is to twist them. So have at it.

By your standard, absolutely everything now can refer to homosexuality, just because you say so. Please don't insult my intelligence. Please.

What you're really trying to say is that the text refers to sin generally, and you're going to say because it refers to sin, it must be referring to homosexuality. Only there isn't a scripture out there that says that homosexuality is a sin - unless we count Leviticus, in which case we must treat homosexuality on par with a trip to Red Lobster.

[semlogo]

Well, I knocked myself out so hard, I discovered your own source contradicts you. It says it "almost certainly is talking about homosexuality," adding only that the chapter's overarching topic is idolotry. It never mentions prostitution and never suggests that the Greek translation secretly says something about prostitution as you suggest. That said, the site does have some interesting arguments. But they're not your arguments. Perhaps you should've gone to this website as your actual source, instead of just claiming the Greek refers to prostitution. What hogwash.

By the way, I would say it is certainly talking about homosexuality. Not almost at all. It's quite obvious. Well, unless you read the semlogo translation of the Bible, wherein Romans 1:27 says, "Prostitution is wrong. Amen."

If you're going to quote, try not remove a quote from its context.

Proposition 6: The one passage in the New Testament that almost certainly does refer to homosexuality is based on some highly debatable presuppositions about its nature and causes.

The passage in question is Romans 1:26–27. Earlier in this chapter, the author is talking about idolatry, the worship of false gods. Then, beginning in verse 24, he talks about the results of idolatry. Verses 24 and 25 identify the results of idolatry as lust, impurity, and the degrading of one’s body. Then, verses 26 and 27 spell out in more detail the nature of this lust, impurity, and bodily degradation as follows (New Revised Standard Version):

For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

Following verses 26 and 27, the remainder of the chapter lists some of the other results of idolatry, and the list is rather similar to the catalogues in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11. In other words, homosexuality is but one among other types of unacceptable behaviors.

What must be emphasized, then, is that the passage, taken as a whole, is not about homosexuality. It is about idolatry. The only reason it mentions homosexuality at all is because the author assumes that it is a result of willful idolatry. Knowing full well that there is one true God, people nevertheless freely choose to worship false gods. As punishment for this idolatry, God “gives them up” to homosexual activity. Thus, in a sense, homosexuality is not so much a sin as it is a punishment for sin. This should mean, however, that no monotheist would ever take part in homosexual activity—no practicing Jew or Christian or Muslim. Only worshippers of false gods would engage in such activity. This was a fairly common assumption within first-century Judaism, and it is one of the dubious presuppositions that underlie Romans 1:26–27. Clearly, however, it is not consistent with what we can observe in the world around us.

[semlogo]

2 Nephi 9: 20-28, 29, 31-34, 35-37, 38-39, 40

[20] O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

[21] And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

[22] And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

[23] And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

[24] And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

[25] Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

[26] For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.

[27] But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

[28] O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not.

[29] But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

[31] And wo unto the deaf that will not hear; for they shall perish.

[32] Wo unto the blind that will not see; for they shall perish also.

[33] Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.

[34] Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

[35] Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die.

[36] Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.

[37] Yea, wo unto those that worship idols, for the devil of all devils delighteth in them.

[38] And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

[39] O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.

[40] O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.

Those verse referring to homosexual behavior are bolded, those that describe people unwilling to acknowledge it are colored blue.

The bottom line is that ANY scripture that condemns sexual sins, ARE CONDEMNING homoSEXUAL SINS!

This is known as a non sequitur. You're supplying the homosexuality meaning, but it's not actually in the text, nor in the surrounding texts. Does not follow. This is a type of logical fallacy.

You need to support your premise, not just rely on argument by assertion.

[Vance]

No, just that I wasn't interested in splitting hairs.

:rofl: :rofl:

Trying to split homosexual behavior, which is a sexual sin, away from sexual sin, isn't "splitting hairs"?

:rofl: :rofl:

Carry on!

[Mordecai]

If you're going to quote, try not remove a quote from its context.

Wow, even in context, there's nothing there about prostitution. In all seriousness, please. Don't tell me what the Greek says again. What a whopper that was.

What we can infer here is that clearly, the Jews didn't accept homosexuality and it's just a historical fact that they had no "gay marriage." So, in the end, homosexual relations are a type of fornication, seeing as they had no "gay marriage." Case closed.