Wiggle room for changing church teachings on homosexuality

[Vance]

I guess we are now down to quibbling about what the definition of "is" is.

Carry on!

[Daniel2]

I guess we are now down to quibbling about what the definition of "is" is.

Carry on!

Actually, Vance, I haven't seen anyone questioning the definition of "is."

The heart of the question, however, is what is the definition of "doctrine."

The "official LDS website" may quote portions of LDS cannon, but I think most Latter-day Saints would agree that the official website (official though it may be) isn't an infallible source which should always be taken as offical Church doctrine.

Darin

[Vance]

Actually, Vance, I haven't seen anyone questioning the definition of "is."

Sorry, you didn't get the joke.

The heart of the question, however, is what is the definition of "doctrine."

Right, because we all know that what you find on lds.org isn't official. RRIIIGHT!

The "official LDS website" may quote portions of LDS cannon, but I think most Latter-day Saints would agree that the official website (official though it may be) isn't an infallible source which should always be taken as offical Church doctrine.

Right, and we are all supposed to turn off our own spiritual receptors, disregard every thing that can be found there and accept you guys' interpretations without question.

I get it!! OK I get it.

Carry on.

[semlogo]

All,

You could just search the OFFICIAL LDS WEB SITE and see what you find regarding the Law of Chastity.

Like this,

http://lds.org/search?query=%22LAW+OF+CHASTITY%22〈=eng

By doing so you find such gems as these.

"God has commanded us that only in marriage between a man and a woman are we to have sexual relations. This commandment is called the law of chastity."

"We are to have sexual relations only with our spouse to whom we are legally married. No one, male or female, is to have sexual relations before marriage. After marriage, sexual relations are permitted only with our spouse."

"Like other violations of the law of chastity, homosexual behavior is a serious sin. Latter-day prophets have spoken about the dangers of homosexual behavior and about the Church’s concern for people who may have such inclinations."

"Chastity means not having any sexual relations before marriage. It also means complete fidelity to husband or wife during marriage."

You'll find scriptural support for everything there except homosexuality. Not everything published on the church website represents a specific revelation from God.

[semlogo]

Right, because we all know that what you find on lds.org isn't official. RRIIIGHT!

Is this official doctrine?

http://lds.org/ensign/1971/07/of-royal-blood?lang=eng

"The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people."

[Mordecai]

In Greek, it's talking about prostitution. Prostitution is of course vile and unnatural...

Making up what the scriptures say in Greek, huh?

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature://Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly...

Rom 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.//Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men...

If we look here, http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=1&t=KJV#26 , we can check what it says in Greek, actually. It doesn't mention prostitution anywhere. No version of the Bible says prostitution.

[Mordecai]

"The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people."

That's pretty much official in that the D&C uses the term to refer to Native Americans in general. That said, it doesn't represent doctrine. Only terminology.

[Mordecai]

[duplicate post]Server acting up today.

[Sky]

I don’t mean to offend anybody, but according to President Spencer W. Kimball, there are an ample amount of scriptures which condemn the practice of homosexuality, either directly or indirectly. The scriptures are still here – they have not changed in the past 30 or so years since Kimball was the prophet.

If the Church were to ever change its doctrine regarding homosexuality, it would require a major change in the way the scriptures have been interpreted after all these years. I believe it would present major problems for the Church. So for those who would argue otherwise, this is what you are up against. If any of you care to look:

Leviticus 20: 13, 15

Romans 1: 26-28

Matthew 19: 12

Ezekiel 18: 21-23

2 Nephi 33: 3-5

Moses 4: 4

D&C 1: 31-32

2 Nephi 9: 31-34

2 Peter 2:17

Revelation 20: 12

2 Nephi 15: 19-21

2 Nephi 20: 33

Acts 5: 3-4

Psalm 107: 17

Deuteronomy 23: 17

Matthew 18: 8-9

1 Nephi 3: 7

2 Nephi 9: 40

D&C 58: 42-43

Matthew 11: 28-30

Moroni 7: 12-14

Jeremiah 2:13

D&C 62: 3

2 Nephi 15: 15

Job 38, 39

Genesis 4

Abraham 5: 18

D&C 104: 5-6

Leviticus 18: 22

1 Corinthians 6: 9

John 8: 11

2 Nephi 9: 40

Alma 12: 34

Revelation 3: 20-21

D&C 1: 33

2 Nephi 9: 38-39

2 Nephi 27: 3

Ezekiel 8: 12

2 Nephi 20: 15

Alma 5: 17-21

D&C 132: 52

D&C 42: 22

Revelation 3: 4-5

Revelation 7: 13-15

Alma 3: 27

2 Nephi 9: 20-28

2 Nephi 10: 23

Mosiah 16: 11-12

Alma 3: 26-27

D&C 19: 15-18

James 1: 13-15

Alma 41: 5-10

Matthew 12: 30

D&C 1: 3

John 8: 34

D&C 18: 6

Revelation 2: 17

Revelation 3: 17-19

2 Nephi 20: 3

2 Nephi 9: 29

2 Nephi 2: 27

Ether 2: 15

2 Nephi 20: 27

Psalm 1: 7

1 Corinthians 7: 23

D&C 18: 11

Helaman 13: 38

Revelation 3: 12

Jeremiah 50: 6

2 Nephi 26: 22

2 Nephi 9: 31-38, 40

Mosiah 26: 35-36

Moroni 9: 4

[Vance]

Is this official doctrine?

http://lds.org/ensign/1971/07/of-royal-blood?lang=eng

"The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people."

The term "Lamanite" originated from the Book of Mormon. In that book it's usage came to mean non-Nephite. So then, the statement you provided is accurate.

Thanks!

[Vance]

I don’t mean to offend anybody, but according to President Spencer W. Kimball, there are an ample amount of scriptures which condemn the practice of homosexuality, either directly or indirectly. The scriptures are still here – they have not changed in the past 30 or so years since Kimball was the prophet.

If the Church were to ever change its doctrine regarding homosexuality, it would require a major change in the way the scriptures have been interpreted after all these years. I believe it would present major problems for the Church. So for those who would argue otherwise, this is what you are up against. If any of you care to look:

Leviticus 20: 13, 15

Romans 1: 26-28

Matthew 19: 12

Ezekiel 18: 21-23

2 Nephi 33: 3-5

Moses 4: 4

D&C 1: 31-32

2 Nephi 9: 31-34

2 Peter 2:17

Revelation 20: 12

2 Nephi 15: 19-21

2 Nephi 20: 33

Acts 5: 3-4

Psalm 107: 17

Deuteronomy 23: 17

Matthew 18: 8-9

1 Nephi 3: 7

2 Nephi 9: 40

D&C 58: 42-43

Matthew 11: 28-30

Moroni 7: 12-14

Jeremiah 2:13

D&C 62: 3

2 Nephi 15: 15

Job 38, 39

Genesis 4

Abraham 5: 18

D&C 104: 5-6

Leviticus 18: 22

1 Corinthians 6: 9

John 8: 11

2 Nephi 9: 40

Alma 12: 34

Revelation 3: 20-21

D&C 1: 33

2 Nephi 9: 38-39

2 Nephi 27: 3

Ezekiel 8: 12

2 Nephi 20: 15

Alma 5: 17-21

D&C 132: 52

D&C 42: 22

Revelation 3: 4-5

Revelation 7: 13-15

Alma 3: 27

2 Nephi 9: 20-28

2 Nephi 10: 23

Mosiah 16: 11-12

Alma 3: 26-27

D&C 19: 15-18

James 1: 13-15

Alma 41: 5-10

Matthew 12: 30

D&C 1: 3

John 8: 34

D&C 18: 6

Revelation 2: 17

Revelation 3: 17-19

2 Nephi 20: 3

2 Nephi 9: 29

2 Nephi 2: 27

Ether 2: 15

2 Nephi 20: 27

Psalm 1: 7

1 Corinthians 7: 23

D&C 18: 11

Helaman 13: 38

Revelation 3: 12

Jeremiah 50: 6

2 Nephi 26: 22

2 Nephi 9: 31-38, 40

Mosiah 26: 35-36

Moroni 9: 4

You just don't get it do you?

These guys can easily correct our misinterpretation of ALL those verses.

Sarcasm/off

[semlogo]

I don’t mean to offend anybody, but according to President Spencer W. Kimball, there are an ample amount of scriptures which condemn the practice of homosexuality, either directly or indirectly. The scriptures are still here – they have not changed in the past 30 or so years since Kimball was the prophet.

If the Church were to ever change its doctrine regarding homosexuality, it would require a major change in the way the scriptures have been interpreted after all these years. I believe it would present major problems for the Church. So for those who would argue otherwise, this is what you are up against. If any of you care to look:

Leviticus 20: 13, 15

Romans 1: 26-28

Matthew 19: 12

Ezekiel 18: 21-23

2 Nephi 33: 3-5

Moses 4: 4

D&C 1: 31-32

2 Nephi 9: 31-34

2 Peter 2:17

Revelation 20: 12

2 Nephi 15: 19-21

2 Nephi 20: 33

Acts 5: 3-4

Psalm 107: 17

Deuteronomy 23: 17

Matthew 18: 8-9

1 Nephi 3: 7

2 Nephi 9: 40

D&C 58: 42-43

Matthew 11: 28-30

Moroni 7: 12-14

Jeremiah 2:13

D&C 62: 3

2 Nephi 15: 15

Job 38, 39

Genesis 4

Abraham 5: 18

D&C 104: 5-6

Leviticus 18: 22

1 Corinthians 6: 9

John 8: 11

2 Nephi 9: 40

Alma 12: 34

Revelation 3: 20-21

D&C 1: 33

2 Nephi 9: 38-39

2 Nephi 27: 3

Ezekiel 8: 12

2 Nephi 20: 15

Alma 5: 17-21

D&C 132: 52

D&C 42: 22

Revelation 3: 4-5

Revelation 7: 13-15

Alma 3: 27

2 Nephi 9: 20-28

2 Nephi 10: 23

Mosiah 16: 11-12

Alma 3: 26-27

D&C 19: 15-18

James 1: 13-15

Alma 41: 5-10

Matthew 12: 30

D&C 1: 3

John 8: 34

D&C 18: 6

Revelation 2: 17

Revelation 3: 17-19

2 Nephi 20: 3

2 Nephi 9: 29

2 Nephi 2: 27

Ether 2: 15

2 Nephi 20: 27

Psalm 1: 7

1 Corinthians 7: 23

D&C 18: 11

Helaman 13: 38

Revelation 3: 12

Jeremiah 50: 6

2 Nephi 26: 22

2 Nephi 9: 31-38, 40

Mosiah 26: 35-36

Moroni 9: 4

The vast majority of these have nothing to do with homosexuality.

[semlogo]

Making up what the scriptures say in Greek, huh?

If we look here, http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=1&t=KJV#26 , we can check what it says in Greek, actually. It doesn't mention prostitution anywhere. No version of the Bible says prostitution.

A shallow analysis like that can only yield shallow results.

[semlogo]

That's pretty much official in that the D&C uses the term to refer to Native Americans in general. That said, it doesn't represent doctrine. Only terminology.

In other words, no.

[semlogo]

The term "Lamanite" originated from the Book of Mormon. In that book it's usage came to mean non-Nephite. So then, the statement you provided is accurate.

Thanks!

The church has since dropped the position that all Native Americans are Lamanites.

[Vance]

The vast majority of these have nothing to do with homosexuality.

And with a magic wave of his magic wand, he dismisses the opposition.

[Jaybear]

And with a magic wave of his magic wand, he dismisses the opposition.

Does it really matter?

If the leadership of the LDS Church purports to receive a revelation which changes the Church doctrine/policy towards gays, it the LDS apologists that will undertake the task of resolving the new policy/doctrine with those scriptures, as well as the past statements of GAs.

I am confident that if you were to put on your apologists hat, you could find a way to square those scriptures with a more tolerant policy directed towards gays. That's the great thing about the scriptures. You can always find a way to explain away or ignore the ones you disagree with.

[Sky]

The vast majority of these have nothing to do with homosexuality.

Well then, your disagreement is not with me - but with Spencer W. Kimball.

[semlogo]

And with a magic wave of his magic wand, he dismisses the opposition.

Go ahead and post full text citations of all the ones that are talking about homosexuality.

[semlogo]

Well then, your disagreement is not with me - but with Spencer W. Kimball.

Spencer W. Kimball, like all latter-day saints, was fallible.

[Vance]

Go ahead and post full text citations of all the ones that are talking about homosexuality.

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on you.

You are the one that is saying that they don't mean what they say, SO prove it.

[Vance]

Does it really matter?

If the leadership of the LDS Church purports to receive a revelation which changes the Church doctrine/policy towards gays, it the LDS apologists that will undertake the task of resolving the new policy/doctrine with those scriptures, as well as the past statements of GAs.

I am confident that if you were to put on your apologists hat, you could find a way to square those scriptures with a more tolerant policy directed towards gays. That's the great thing about the scriptures. You can always find a way to explain away or ignore the ones you disagree with.

Wishful thinking that current doctrine will be changed, if enough external pressure is brought to bare, is . . . well, . . . wishful thinking.

Homosexual behavior is anathema to the Spirit. It is in direct opposition to the plan of salvation.

[Vance]

Spencer W. Kimball, like all latter-day saints, was fallible.

But far less fallible in regard to declaring doctrine/policy/practice than you.

So . . . between the two of you, I should question his statements?

[Vance]

The church has since dropped the position that all Native Americans are Lamanites.

Not an accurate description at all.

What the church dropped was the statement that the Lehites were the "principle ancestors" of the American Indians.

Which, of course, is irrelevant to the fact that "Lamanites" meant and means NON-Nephites, and does include the NON-Lehite American Indians.

BTW, I am a native American.

[semlogo]

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on you.

You are the one that is saying that they don't mean what they say, SO prove it.

I'm saying they DO mean what they say, but they say nothing about homosexuality. And I think you know that.

A quick example

2 Nephi 20: 33

"33 Behold, the Lord, the Lord of Hosts shall lop the bough with terror; and the ahigh ones of stature shall be bhewn down; and the chaughty shall be humbled."

100% homosexuality free. In fact, The Book of Mormon, PoGP and D&C are 100% free of any commentary on homosexuality at all.