Anyone foreseeing some type of revelation?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Nobody did. I was answering BlueAdept's question - "is there no concern on this matter in regards to the increasing ages of the Apostles?"

Am I wrong in sharing an opinion contrary to the majority? Or should I have stood in line to echo the strain of "NO! There is no concern! Age doesn't matter!"?

Once again, I was answering BlueAdept's question, and my answer was the only contrary opinion. Sure, Monson was 36 when called as an apostle. What extraordinary prophetic insight did he offer that made him a stand-out?

Huh? I presented an opinion - that was all that was required from the original inquiry. And my opinion is that it would be nice to see prophets who dispense prophetic insight, not wisdom gained through age. And to show that, it would be nice to see a prophet who was unencumbered by age.

H.

So your insult is ok as long as it expresses what you truly feel? Well it might be ok with you but not with those you offended, even if you do not think you were offensive people have taken offense.

At least I can agree with that, you have a right to any opinion about anything, but the way you presented you opinion was insulting to many LDS members of this forum.

It implied that the apostleship of the church is uninspired because they are too old, I know that you may not of meant this as an offense but it was offense to many in here.

You have the right to say it but as we are told by the living prophet, you also have to except the consequences of your action and have to right to try and prevent that.

You have the right to imply that the apostles are uninspired with your misguided comments, but you must also take responsibility for that action and repent and make restitution if needed.

Seeing that you have sat on so many disciplinary councils I would assume that you would understand this concept so deeply that you would be able to give a talk in GC about it, it appears that some times even the expert needs come further understanding! That is the biggest blessing of the Restored Gospel we are always learning each day and building upon of current understanding!

Your comments were offensive and you have yet to apologize for the offense caused, maybe that is why some other members here tend to be quite sour with you, unlike myself who tries very hard to let bygones be bygones some might still be deeply hurt and offended by past comments you have posted.

Maybe today is the day to make restitution and bury the hatch?

Having a right to do something doesn't mean it is the best thing to do every time.

[cinepro]

And just in case anyone was wondering what the likelihood was of each apostle being Prophet someday...

From this blog post.

[mfbukowski]

When I attended GC a couple of years back, the love of the LDS folks have for the President of the Church and the Apostles as they entered could easily be felt by anyone. I imagine it will be similar when I see the Pope this summer with all the youth that will be there. I noted the number of protesters that shows up at GC. Since the event I'm attending is ten times the size of GC, I'm going to be curious if the protesters will be ten times the size. We shall see.

I believe this thread has run it's course. The love that LDS folks have for the President and the Apostles is a given. Lazurus's comment '...as defined in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants wherein priesthood holders -- including especially Church leadership -- are promised specific physical blessings for honoring their priesthood and magnifying their callings' does help me as a non-member to appreciate why this is a non issue. It's always good to learn something new.

Just one more if you don't mind. I think it is especially clear at conference, when you hear some GA crack the most innocuous "joke" about some childhood prank or bit of mischief, the gales of laughter which follow make that sense of love just palpable. The Apostles and prophet especially are seen as everybody's favorite Grandpa (appropriately analogous with the Catholic title of "Papa" for the Pope I think) and the love felt is entirely similar.

I had a similar experience recently at my son's wedding when after a long day of photographs, there was a call for "just one more" and the smiles were getting strained, the usual call went out to "Say 'cheese'!" and the always dignified family matriarch, now into her 80's, yelled out in a loud voice, "SEX!" and everyone just plain lost it!!

These were some of the best pictures of the entire day! Of course it was inconceivable that she could even say such a word, even though she had 8 children, nearly 50 grandchildren and so far, some 10 or so great grandchildren, giving clear evidence that she was acquainted with its meaning.

There is something about the reverence we have (or I think rightly we should have) for those getting up in years that still has its place in human society, especially in a religious context.

There is a reason most religions have the concept of "Elder".

[LDS Guy 1986]

And just in case anyone was wondering what the likelihood was of each apostle being Prophet someday...

From this blog post.

I must admit though it might be a sin, that I think the Elder Oaks would make a wonderful successor for President Monson. Of course I love President Monson as well as President Packer and Elders Perry and Nelson also, and don't want to see any ill health or injury take these men from us any time soon. I hope and pray each day that each of these men have decades of health and leadership ahead.

It's ok, you can now prepare the stake to burn my blasphemous hide on!

[zerinus]

I actually understand how the LDS leadership structure is set up and appreciate LDSGuys extensive effort to explain it all.

The question is simple though, Are LDS concerned about the increasing age of their Top 15? IMO....you're not but no one has answered yet.

I am not! What is your next question?

[blueadept]

Thanks for the graph cinepro.

Let's see....as a nonmember, my favorite 3 to walk out of the room so as to be not annoyed

President Packer

Elder Oaks

Elder Holland

Oh well.

I REALLY enjoy Elder Bednar's talks though.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Thanks for the graph cinepro.

Let's see....as a nonmember, my favorite 3 to walk out of the room so as to be not annoyed

President Packer

Elder Oaks

Elder Holland

Oh well.

I REALLY enjoy Elder Bednar's talks though.

I can see President Packer, may people dislike his demeanor and less than meek way of presenting the policies of the Church.

Why Elders Oaks and Holland?

They are very well liked among the membership and respected and admired by many non members around the world.

Elder Oaks was so well respected in the legal community that he was even being considered as a candidate to be nominated as a Justice in the US Supreme Court prior to accepting his calling as an Apostle of Jesus Christ?

[blueadept]

The two annoying talks that Elder Holland I believe gave dealt with 'the true Christ' vs what other believe and the talk where he held up the BoM that Hyrum had held prior to his death. The faithful loved both of those talks. Annoyance would describe my thoughts about it.

I'll have to research which talks fell into that category in regards to Elder Oaks.

[blueadept]

Perhaps this saying from Saint Francis De Sales will help what I look for in a good talk,

"My test of the worth of a sermon is when worshipers go away saying, not, "what a beautiful sermon!" but rather, "I will do something."

[LDSToronto]

The two annoying talks that Elder Holland I believe gave dealt with 'the true Christ' vs what other believe and the talk where he held up the BoM that Hyrum had held prior to his death. The faithful loved both of those talks. Annoyance would describe my thoughts about it.

I'll have to research which talks fell into that category in regards to Elder Oaks.

How DARE you call Elder Holland's talks annoying. Elder Holland is one of the Lord's Anointed, and YOU have no RIGHT to call anything he says annoying! Your only response to Elder Holland's talk should be, "That was the most wonderful and truthful thing I've ever heard in my entire life". And I don't care if you are a member or not - Elder Holland has stewardship over the whole earth and you must subject yourself to what he says.

Please refrain from being so utterly offensive - many people here are taking offense as we speak, and it is ALL YOUR FAULT!

H.

PS. Did I get it right, LDS Guy? Is that how it's done?

[LDSToronto]

So your insult is ok as long as it expresses what you truly feel? Well it might be ok with you but not with those you offended, even if you do not think you were offensive people have taken offense.

At least I can agree with that, you have a right to any opinion about anything, but the way you presented you opinion was insulting to many LDS members of this forum.

It implied that the apostleship of the church is uninspired because they are too old, I know that you may not of meant this as an offense but it was offense to many in here.

...

Your comments were offensive and you have yet to apologize for the offense caused, maybe that is why some other members here tend to be quite sour with you, unlike myself who tries very hard to let bygones be bygones some might still be deeply hurt and offended by past comments you have posted.

Maybe today is the day to make restitution and bury the hatch?

Let's see, in this thread, we were asked if age made a difference. Most of you said no, I said yes. I guess that's strike one. Then I said that age may make a difference because it conflates prophetic insight with advice given because one is old. Strike two, I suppose. Finally, I said a nice, young, twenty-something prophet modeled after Nephi or Moroni, offering prophetic insight would dispel those thoughts that age mattered. Strike three.

Well, here, to all those that have taken offense, the best thing I can do to make restitution is to offer this prophetic insight (also found in many self-help books, but hey, who's counting?) from our youngest apostle, David A. Bednar:

When we believe or say we have been offended, we usually mean we feel insulted, mistreated, snubbed, or disrespected. And certainly clumsy, embarrassing, unprincipled, and mean-spirited things do occur in our interactions with other people that would allow us to take offense. However, it ultimately is impossible for another person to offend you or to offend me. Indeed, believing that another person offended us is fundamentally false. To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else.

In the grand division of all of God

[LDS Guy 1986]

How DARE you call Elder Holland's talks annoying. Elder Holland is one of the Lord's Anointed, and YOU have no RIGHT to call anything he says annoying! Your only response to Elder Holland's talk should be, "That was the most wonderful and truthful thing I've ever heard in my entire life". And I don't care if you are a member or not - Elder Holland has stewardship over the whole earth and you must subject yourself to what he says.

Please refrain from being so utterly offensive - many people here are taking offense as we speak, and it is ALL YOUR FAULT!

H.

PS. Did I get it right, LDS Guy? Is that how it's done?

No, you missed the entire point, Toronto. I guess the concept that it is okay do disagree but one should step lightly around matters of faith out of common courtesy and respect towards each other never sunk in when they teach it in your quorum at your ward.

I guess like Paul said not everyone has every gift of the spirit and compassion and admitting and apologizing when one offends there brother in Christ others were two of the gifts that the Lord with held.

But hey you still got an eternity to work on those gifts my brother, don't worry in due time we will all overcome our weaknesses of the flesh is we strive to follow the example of the Lord.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Let's see, in this thread, we were asked if age made a difference. Most of you said no, I said yes. I guess that's strike one. Then I said that age may make a difference because it conflates prophetic insight with advice given because one is old. Strike two, I suppose. Finally, I said a nice, young, twenty-something prophet modeled after Nephi or Moroni, offering prophetic insight would dispel those thoughts that age mattered. Strike three.

Well, here, to all those that have taken offense, the best thing I can do to make restitution is to offer this prophetic insight (also found in many self-help books, but hey, who's counting?) from our youngest apostle, David A. Bednar:

I hope that helps you find peace.

H.

You miss the point of the entire talk in my opinion and like you have shown before your are still an expert at taking things out of context, and incapable of admitting fault or error on this forum.

He is referring to those who hold grudges against there brother, not those stung my the vicious and contentious attacks of someone against the core of there faith.

You continue to show that for one so experienced and active in the Church, that it takes more than going through the movement and holding calling and stilling on councils to grasp the fullness of the Gospel as we have it.

"if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off." (JST Mark 9:40)

"And if thy brother or sister offend thee, thou shalt take him or her between him or her and thee alone; and if he or she confess thou shalt be reconciled. And if he or she confess not thou shalt deliver him or her up unto the church, not to the members, but to the elders. And it shall be done in a meeting, and that not before the world. And if thy brother or sister offend many, he or she shall be chastened before many. And if any one offend openly, he or she shall be rebuked openly, that he or she may be ashamed. And if he or she confess not, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of God. If any shall offend in secret, he or she shall be rebuked in secret, that he or she may have opportunity to confess in secret to him or her whom he or she has offended, and to God, that the church may not speak reproachfully of him or her." (D&C 42: 88-92)

"A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: andtheir contentions are like the bars of a castle." (Proverbs 18:19)

We are going to offend people that is a given and it is a sin, we are suppose to love and cherish each other not offend and mock each other. I am as guilty as the next man I admit that and I do my best to repent of such thing and seek out the offended and make restitution for my transgression.

It seems though that some have not learned this simple but humble message yet.

[LDSToronto]

No, you missed the entire point, Toronto. I guess the concept that it is okay do disagree but one should step lightly around matters of faith out of common courtesy and respect towards each other never sunk in when they teach it in your quorum at your ward.

LDS Guy, this isn't sacrament meeting! Nor is it even high priests quorum. So far, you've called me offensive and prideful and I've called you...nothing, so spare me any lecture on common courtesy.

This is a 'dialogue and discussion' board, on the internet, ABOUT THE MORMON FAITH! If you can't handle speaking about matters of faith, and further, can't handle people who disagree with the party line, I'd suggest you examine your motives for being here.

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

LDS Guy, this isn't sacrament meeting! Nor is it even high priests quorum. So far, you've called me offensive and prideful and I've called you...nothing, so spare me any lecture on common courtesy.

This is a 'dialogue and discussion' board, on the internet, ABOUT THE MORMON FAITH! If you can't handle speaking about matters of faith, and further, can't handle people who disagree with the party line, I'd suggest you examine your motives for being here.

H.

When one is acting offensively and pridefully it is not against common courtesy to point it out, in fact it is considered a common courtesy to make such a statement to hopefully allow civilized adults take a small breather and stop acting so momentarily immature.

I have no problem with people disagreeing, at all I do have problems with people that allow there pride and stubbornness to interfere with a civil discussion between adults.

We are all entitled to disagree, but when things get taken out of hand and people go over the line they are expected to be honest about it and make an effort to no long enter into such periods of temporary immaturity.

[LDSToronto]

You miss the point of the entire talk in my opinion and like you have shown before your are still an expert at taking things out of context, and incapable of admitting fault or error on this forum.

He is referring to those who hold grudges against there brother, not those stung my the vicious and contentious attacks of someone against the core of there faith.

I read the whole talk, in fact, I've taught quorum lessons from that talk, and I don't recall Elder Bednar making exceptions...Perhaps you can show me how I've taken his talk out of context? Show me where he made an exception for this scenario that you find yourself in?

And one more thing... you can quote all the scripture you want, but if a modern-day prophet has spoken on a matter, that is the instruction you must live by. I think I pointed that out to you in a past thread. Of course, I think you told me I had misinterpreted that, too.

H.

[LDSToronto]

When one is acting offensively and pridefully it is not against common courtesy to point it out, in fact it is considered a common courtesy to make such a statement to hopefully allow civilized adults take a small breather and stop acting so momentarily immature.

I have no problem with people disagreeing, at all I do have problems with people that allow there pride and stubbornness to interfere with a civil discussion between adults.

We are all entitled to disagree, but when things get taken out of hand and people go over the line they are expected to be honest about it and make an effort to no long enter into such periods of temporary immaturity.

OK, well, show me where the line is. Tell me what the limits of disagreement are, in your mind. I'm guessing that questioning the brethren is off-limits, right?

I mean, you keep saying that I'm being offensive, but you have yet to show me what was offensive about my remarks concerning the age of the brethren.

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

OK, well, show me where the line is. Tell me what the limits of disagreement are, in your mind. I'm guessing that questioning the brethren is off-limits, right?

I mean, you keep saying that I'm being offensive, but you have yet to show me what was offensive about my remarks concerning the age of the brethren.

H.

Not questioning anyone is always ok, making statements that imply the apostleship is subject to corruption because they are old is an insult and a offense to anyone who sees those men as called prophets, seers, and revelators of the lord.

Personally I don't care what other people think of the Apostle I know that they are called of God and statements give me no offense, though they did shock me coming from one that says he is a member of this Church.

Other though took deep offense and you refused to make reconciliation even though we are taught to do so as Latter-day Saints. To me the action seems based in pride, I can find no other rational explanation, I admit that this is a personal observation and that I am not qualified or worthy to make any decisions about your character as a Latter-day Saint, only comment on the appearances of your actions.

[LDSToronto]

Not questioning anyone is always ok, making statements that imply the apostleship is subject to corruption because they are old is an insult and a offense to anyone who sees those men as called prophets, seers, and revelators of the lord.

Whoa whoa whoa! Hold up, cowboy! I did *not* say, nor did I even imply, that any of the brethren are subject to corruption, aged or not. You have severely over-inferred from my remarks. I said, simply, that the prophecy we receive today can look a lot like the advice that a typical old person might dispense. Period. That is what I said.

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Show me a young Moroni or Nephi, filled with the power of God, who clearly displays prophetic insight. Now that would be something unique in the LDS church.

The implication here is that the current leadership has no prophetic insight since someone that clearly shows prophetic insight would be unique to the Church.

Whether you intended to say this or not it was said and offence was taken both members.

[LDSToronto]

The implication here is that the current leadership has no prophetic insight since someone that clearly shows prophetic insight would be unique to the Church.

Whether you intended to say this or not it was said and offence was taken both members.

Please learn the difference between implication and inference.

Like I said, read Bednar's talk and get over it.

H.

[bookofmormontruth]

How DARE you call Elder Holland's talks annoying. Elder Holland is one of the Lord's Anointed, and YOU have no RIGHT to call anything he says annoying! Your only response to Elder Holland's talk should be, "That was the most wonderful and truthful thing I've ever heard in my entire life". And I don't care if you are a member or not - Elder Holland has stewardship over the whole earth and you must subject yourself to what he says.

Please refrain from being so utterly offensive - many people here are taking offense as we speak, and it is ALL YOUR FAULT!

H.

PS. Did I get it right, LDS Guy? Is that how it's done?

Your previous "clarifying" post was definitely not sincere with this mocking post.

[LDSToronto]

Your previous "clarifying" post was definitely not sincere with this mocking post.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't see how *I* can be blamed for insulting the authority of the twelve, while another isn't.

H.

[blueadept]

Requesting the mods to close this thread PLEASE

[Hestia]

Closing at OP request.