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Anyone foreseeing some type of revelation?


blueadept

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LDS Guy commented on another thread

...This is the downside of a life calling, eventually all the quorum members age and have various health issues.

The youngest Apostle is Elder Bednar at 58, the average age of the Apostles is 73.67 years. ...

I wouldn't expect the policy to change for the President of the Church of course in considering retirement but does anyone foresee in addressing the issue that the Apostles average age is 73.67?

I'm quite comfortable that in the RCC, church law states that once bishops reach the age of 75, they need to turn in their retirement papers to the Vatican. Cardinal Mahoney of the Los Angeles diocese turned in his paperwork last year and the new bishop was sworn in last month. :P (Trying to hide the fact that I'm not a Cardinal Mahoney fan... ;) )

Just curious. (I suspect that most LDS members are perfectly fine with present policy and that the issue will eventually work itself out. ) :crazy:

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LDS Guy commented on another thread

I wouldn't expect the policy to change for the President of the Church of course in considering retirement but does anyone foresee in addressing the issue that the Apostles average age is 73.67?

I'm quite comfortable that in the RCC, church law states that once bishops reach the age of 75, they need to turn in their retirement papers to the Vatican. Cardinal Mahoney of the Los Angeles diocese turned in his paperwork last year and the new bishop was sworn in last month. :P (Trying to hide the fact that I'm not a Cardinal Mahoney fan... ;) )

Just curious. (I suspect that most LDS members are perfectly fine with present policy and that the issue will eventually work itself out. ) :crazy:

The Apostleship in the LDS Church is similar to the papacy in the RCC, the Pope doesn't retire, he serves till death. The same goes for Apostles in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As you mentioned the membership is fine with this, with few exceptions most Apostles are in there 50's when they are called to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. It is rare to see an Apostle called before he is in his mid 40's, of course it is not impossible though President Monson (the current President of the Church) was called to the Apostleship at the infantile age of 36 (one of the youngest called in Church history)!

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blueadept:

With the exception of the Apostles there are no lifetime jobs in the Church.

Understood....now back to the question.....

or is there no concern on this matter in regards to the increasing ages of the Apostles?

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The Apostleship in the LDS Church is similar to the papacy in the RCC, the Pope doesn't retire, he serves till death. The same goes for Apostles in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Pope is one individual and rest of the leadership in the RCC retires by 75. IMO, that should be a concern (but of course, I'm not LDS) since the LDS leadership average age is 73.67.

Just curious about how LDS feel about it...that's all.

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blueadept:

With the exception of the Apostles there are no lifetime jobs in the Church.

Once could argue that the presiding patriarch is a life position, but currently the presiding patriarch is in emeritus status and there is no active presiding patriarch, the presiding patriarch is also a heretical position so that may be part of it.

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When you talk about "average" age, it gets skewed... the newer named apostles are younger, i.e., 60's. Younger apostles are being named as the older ones pass on.

Reminds me of checking the "average" temperature when my friend was relocating to a southern state. Sounded wonderful at mid to high 70's... no mention of the 90-100+ in the summer months almost into fall and incredible humidity. Only by checking monthly stats did we get the clear picture.

GG

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When you talk about "average" age, it gets skewed... the newer named apostles are younger, i.e., 60's. Younger apostles are being named as the older ones pass on.

Reminds me of checking the "average" temperature when my friend was relocating to a southern state. Sounded wonderful at mid to high 70's... no mention of the 90-100+ in the summer months almost into fall and incredible humidity. Only by checking monthly stats did we get the clear picture.

GG

That just means that there's a larger number of Apostles over the age 73 to balance it all out. I'm just under the impression that LDS folks are not too concerned that the President of their Church is definitely getting older as new Presidents take over.

At least I know that any new Pope will be under the age of 70 when they start their papacy and I'm good with that.

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The Pope is one individual and rest of the leadership in the RCC retires by 75. IMO, that should be a concern (but of course, I'm not LDS) since the LDS leadership average age is 73.67.

Just curious about how LDS feel about it...that's all.

See though our 15 Apostles function just like the Pope does, so the Apostleship is not the entire Church leadership, just the highest leadership.

We also have the First and Second Quorum of the Seventy, and the Presiding Bishopric as General Authorities in the Church.

Members of the Seventy are usually given emeritus status around 70 - 75 years old, they still retain the title Elder and are still given the honor of being called a General Authority but no longer have any active assignments in the Church.

We also have various levels of leadership outside the General Authorities, we have the 3rd through 8th quorums of the Seventy which comprise of the Area Authorities of the Church. We also have what are called regional leaderships and congregational leadership.

All of this is lay leadership and there is no compensation provided for these positions in the Church, they consist of Stake (or district) presidencies, which is similar to a diocese in the RCC, and a Ward (or congregation) Bishopric (or branch presidency) similar to a parish in the RCC.

So we have thousands of leaders outside of the Apostleship of the Church, when an Apostle passes away a new Apostle is called from within the Priesthood of the Church in the next General Conference (in most cases but not always).

The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostle make up our high leadership that the RCC has in the office of the papacy.

We have

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Mike Wallace: There are those who say, this is a gerontocracy, this is a church run by old men.

Gordon B. Hinckley: Isn't it wonderful? To have a man of maturity at the head, a man of judgment, who isn't blown about by every wind of doctrine?

Mike Wallace: Absolutely, as long as he's not dotty. [Laughs.]

Gordon B. Hinckley: [Laughs] Thank you for the compliment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltSxpGghD-o&feature=related

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I actually understand how the LDS leadership structure is set up and appreciate LDSGuys extensive effort to explain it all.

The question is simple though, Are LDS concerned about the increasing age of their Top 15? IMO....you're not but no one has answered yet. :P

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Just curious. (I suspect that most LDS members are perfectly fine with present policy and that the issue will eventually work itself out. ) :P

We have had Apostles who become Emeritus, or retired. I think the problem is in our youth oriented society we don't appreciate the wisdom and experience of age. A Prophet may become ill but he has his counselors and the Quorum of the Twelve to carry on so the work moves forward.

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I actually understand how the LDS leadership structure is set up and appreciate LDSGuys extensive effort to explain it all.

The question is simple though, Are LDS concerned about the increasing age of their Top 15? IMO....you're not but no one has answered yet. :P

I'm not concerned a bit. The Lord knows what He is doing. In my lifetime, President Hunter was elderly and sickly when he was called to preside over the church, serving only a few months; and yet, he did exactly what his Supervisor wanted him to do.

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I actually understand how the LDS leadership structure is set up and appreciate LDSGuys extensive effort to explain it all.

The question is simple though, Are LDS concerned about the increasing age of their Top 15? IMO....you're not but no one has answered yet. :P

No.

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That just means that there's a larger number of Apostles over the age 73 to balance it all out. I'm just under the impression that LDS folks are not too concerned that the President of their Church is definitely getting older as new Presidents take over.

At least I know that any new Pope will be under the age of 70 when they start their papacy and I'm good with that.

Here are the ages of the apostles and first presidency:

TSM - 83

HBE - 77

DFU - 70

BKP - 86

LTP - 88

RMN - 86

DHO - 78

MRB - 82

RGS - 82

RDH - 78

JRH - 70

DAB - 58

QLC - 70

DTC - 66

NLA - 59

The Quorum of Twelve, mean age = 75.25, median age = 78. Include the 1st Presidency, and the mean rises slightly to 75.5

Are members concerned? I don't know. My personal experience when talking to youth about things like music, culture, and media is that the 12 and 1st Presidency are "out of touch". My experience with members, in general, is that most don't think much about the 12 and will pick and choose minor apostolic instruction - wear flip flops to church (or not), watch TV shows that would not be considered appropriate (or not), watch/play sports/work on Sunday (or not),share gospel (or not) etc... but generally follow major apostolic instruction - don't break law of chastity, follow word of wisdom, etc.

H.

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The age of an apostle or a prophet is not an issue to the membership of the Church but sure seems to be an obsession with the media and some critics of the Church. I've never understood why that is so. There is no scriptural basis for an age limit, at least on the upper end, that is. Adam, after suffering issues with Cain, was hesitant to ordain men to the priesthood, adding an exception to Enoch when he was just 25. Most, including Enoch's father, had to wait until they were well into adulthood (150+ years, according the scripture) before even being ordained.

But in modern times age and death seems to be our way of knowing who the Lord has called to be prophet. When President Monson was ordained at age 36 many assumed that he would be president of the Church at a young age and would be president for some time. When he became prophet at age 80 I don't think many thought it would take so long. In the Church, we call men of President Monson's experience "seasoned", as he has served for many years in the highest councils of the Church and had experienced about all a man could experience before having the mantle of prophet placed upon him. That was only done upon the passing of President Hinckley, who was 97 when he passed.

Some harken back to the Church administrative periods of President Kimball and President Benson in their criticism of this succession policy. President Kimball was a surprise entirely, only ascending to the presidency upon the untimely death of Harold B. Lee, who was only 73, I think, when he passed and who had appeared to be in robust health when he passed. He was only president for one or two years. President Kimball had been beset with health issues dating back decades and he lived until he was 90 years of age, operating in a dynamic, almost-breathtaking fashion for the first several years of his 12-year ministry as president of the Church. But in 1980, five full years before he died, he slowed considerably and began to suffer a series of health set backs that impeded his ability, at least from the outside looking in, to be president of the Church. For the last three or four years of his life he could not address the Saints in conference and for the last year he showed up not at all in public.

President Benson, after him a few years later, clearly suffered dementia or some other ailments that called into question his mental capacity. There was, at the time, a lot of debate on this topic.

The point, at least in my view, wasn't that the Church was leaderless at those times because clearly it was not. The Church operates in quorums and now has decades of known policies and procedures. It doesn't move forward on certain things without revelation from Jesus Christ and that doesn't come but to one man, the ordained living prophet, regardless of his condition. It would behoove those interested to study the later years of President Kimball, especially when new apostles (I think they were Elders Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oakes) were called. President Kimball had limited capacity to communicate -- but still led in the proceedings and "made the call" for their ordinations. I personally believe that this was a season of trial and seasoning specifically for President Hinckley, a man who eventually proved a master at moving the Church forward in a dynamic way during the time of his administration.

There are other "lifetime" callings in the Church. A patriarch -- not just a presiding patriarch -- is called for life, for example.

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I'm not concerned a bit. The Lord knows what He is doing. In my lifetime, President Hunter was elderly and sickly when he was called to preside over the church, serving only a few months; and yet, he did exactly what his Supervisor wanted him to do.

In reading stories about this interesting time period of President Hunter, I read a few family accounts that were on both sides in regards to if it was a positive and negative thing because of his health. Not that I foresee anything happening health wise with President Monson, but it would be the same concerns due to President BKP's health at this point.

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The thing about being a General Authority, as I see it, you would have to have either lots of experience but maybe not last that long (maybe 10-15 years or less) or have little or no experience but have years and years to be a General Authority (Marion D. Hanks, Paul H. Dunn, Bruce R. McConkie, S. Dilworth Young are the ones that come to mind)-you need to have some kind of balance-experience but youth

Even with experience though just because something worked for you doesn't mean it will work for someone else-Glad I am not in charge!

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When you talk about "average" age, it gets skewed... the newer named apostles are younger, i.e., 60's. Younger apostles are being named as the older ones pass on.

Reminds me of checking the "average" temperature when my friend was relocating to a southern state. Sounded wonderful at mid to high 70's... no mention of the 90-100+ in the summer months almost into fall and incredible humidity. Only by checking monthly stats did we get the clear picture.

GG

Not really skewed at all actually since roughly half the Apostleship is over 73.

Here is the breakdown of the LDS Apostles (listing are by seniority in there quorum not age):

The First Presidency

Title and Name Age Age when ordained an apostle

President Thomas S. Monson 82 36

President Henry B. Eyring 77 61

President Dieter F. Uchtdorf 70 64

The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

President Boyd K Packer 86 45

Elder L. Tom Perry 88 51

Elder Russell M. Nelson 86 59

Elder Davin H. Oaks 78 51

Elder M. Russell Ballard 82 57

Elder Richard G. Scott 82 60

Elder Robert D. Hales 72 55

Elder Jeffery R. Holland 60 44

Elder David A. Bednar 58 52

Elder Quentin L. Cook 60 57

Elder D. Todd Christofferson 65 62

Elder Neil L. Anderson 59 57

So we have 8 members above the average age and 7 below, if there is any skewing it is because Elder's Bednar and Anderson are so young in contrast to the majority of the Apostleship, but this skewing actually makes the average reflect the middle of the Apostleship since 8 are above 73 and 7 are below 73.

Another interesting fact is that1/3 Apostles were born in the Month of August!

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We have had Apostles who become Emeritus, or retired.

CFR, please, I have never heard of a retired Apostle, I have heard of Apostles not having active assignments due to health issues but I have never heard of a Member of the 12 or the First Presidency retiring.

Are you referring to the old office of assistant to the twelve?

If so that doesn't really count because they were never in the Quorum even though they were ordained an Apostle, and only in a few cases were assistants to the twelve ordained an apostle.

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