Anyone foreseeing some type of revelation?

[ELF1024]

Essentially, while they look at the general leadership with respect, they also kind of view them as people who are like gramma and grampa - nice, old, folks who want the best for them, and tell entertaining stories, but who's advice can sometimes be taken and can sometimes be left behind.

H.

I would agree with H that this is view of many of the youth in my area.

[blueadept]

My father and our pastor who said Eminem and Dr. Dre were bad for me didn't understand anything, they were "out of touch" with me.

Good leaders tend not to make blanket statements in regards to anyone especially when the statement tends to be negative.

Katy Perry's songs tend to carry a negative message but I was surprised when she actually produced a positive moral song. What's important that good leadership in any organization is to show our youth how to weed out the negative stuff and the importance of doing that. Otherwise, as the saying goes, "one can throwout the baby with bath water if you're not careful."

Experienced leadership can appreciate the meaning of this that totally loses its meaning for our youth.

[bookofmormontruth]

No one has taken a jab or a cheap shot at the leadership of the church. Blue asked a question to which there can be a spectrum of answers, and I'd suggest that just because you don't agree with the answer, it doesn't make the answer 'wicked'.

I'd also suggest you read up on the 'board nanny' rule.

H.

I have proven that I am not here to be your "nanny" for I have had previous discussions with you specifically and have respected your disagreements.

Thus, I am concerned about aged men performing as prophets, seers, and revelators, because anyone old enough can offer the same advice and wisdom that current apostles offer now. Show me a young Moroni or Nephi, filled with the power of God, who clearly displays prophetic insight. Now that would be something unique in the LDS church.

But I will not respect any kind of jab or cheap shot towards the Lord's anointed. It completely disrespects those who I love and admire and will only drive away LDS members from commenting.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Good leaders tend not to make blanket statements in regards to anyone especially when the statement tends to be negative.

Katy Perry's songs tend to carry a negative message but I was surprised when she actually produced a positive moral song. What's important that good leadership in any organization is to show our youth how to weed out the negative stuff and the importance of doing that. Otherwise, as the saying goes, "one can throwout the baby with bath water if you're not careful."

Experienced leadership can appreciate the meaning of this that totally loses its meaning for our youth.

Good leaders, don't endorse an immoral person because they make one song that isn't an abomination.

There is plenty of secular artists out there that have decent music, but I would he hard pressed to sustain a leader in any church that allowed immoral media to be swept under the rug. I know the long term harm this filth causes people, and how the deceiver uses such "innocent" things to draw people into thinking immorality is ok or acceptable.

It is there duty to warn and exhort the membership about immorality in media, and youth tend to not like it when persons in authority tell them that popular music is spiritually harmful to them.

Leaders make "blanket" statements at time because if they don't and the people they are responsible for sin it is on the leaders head for not doing his duty, according to the scriptures.

Also no one literally told me Eminem or Dr. Dre were bad for me they said rap music was bad for me because of it's immoral message. I doubt that my pastor even knew who Marshall Mathers aka Eminem was in fact, unless you mentioned Eminem. In fact one time I convinced him to let me go to a Eminem concert because the ticket said Marshall Mathers on it instead of Eminem, when he found out who Marshall Mathers was though he grounded me for a week, for lying to him.

[blueadept]

who clearly displays prophetic insight. Now that would be something unique in the LDS church.

...and where did that quote come from? I can appreciate why that would be offensive.

I'm not sure why me listing the age of the next four apostles in line for the Presidency of the LDS church falls under the category of being offensive. That's reality IMHO.

[blueadept]

Good leaders, don't endorse an immoral person because they make one sons that isn't an abomination.

It is there duty to warn and exhort the membership about immorality in media, and youth tend to not like it when persons in authority tell them that popular music is spiritually harmful to them.

Leaders make "blanket" statements at time because if they don't and the people they are responsible for sin it is on the leaders head for not doing his duty, according to the scriptures.

Okay, I say we agree to disagree on the point. So be it.

My preference is to look for the good in all people since we are all God's children. A viewpoint I believe most LDS people I know share.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Okay, I say we agree to disagree on the point. So be it.

My preference is to look for the good in all people since we are all God's children. A viewpoint I believe most LDS people I know share.

One can look for good in a person while still rebuking the sinful nature they live, it is the duty of the leadership to warn the membership about immorality, not to judge the people who do immoral things. Only Christ can make any judgements about them, man can only warn about there actions and there works.

As the old saying goes one must "love the sinner, but not the sin."

[Deborah]

CFR, please, I have never heard of a retired Apostle, I have heard of Apostles not having active assignments due to health issues but I have never heard of a Member of the 12 or the First Presidency retiring.

You're right. That applies to 70's and other officers. However, at one time there were those who were trying to set a retirement age for Apostles.

retirement?

[blueadept]

One can look for good in a person while still rebuking the sinful nature they live, it is the duty of the leadership to warn the membership about immorality, not to judge the people who do immoral things. Only Christ can make any judgements about them, man can only warn about there actions and there works.

As the old saying goes one must "love the sinner, but not the sin."

While I'm a fond lover of that quote as a Catholic, I've never had the opinion that is a quality that is well shown by LDS. It's probably just what appears to be the LDS heavy emphasis on evangelization though that skews my observation.

The fact that my wife's HEAVY desire for me to convert could also be a factor in this as well.

[LDS Guy 1986]

While I'm a fond lover of that quote as a Catholic, I've never had the opinion that is a quality that is well shown by LDS. It's probably just what appears to be the LDS heavy emphasis on evangelization though that skews my observation.

The fact that my wife's HEAVY desire for me to convert could also be a factor in this as well.

Well, I can see how you could feel this but know that we love everyone regardless, as a Church, we do not accept all lifestyles and we actively defend morality in the public forum. But we do not ever imply or believe that our defense of morality us judging others or condemning them, only our defense of what we believe to be sacred and vital truths.

Only extremest take the "your with me or against me" position on anything, I do my best to love everyone (though this is a work in progress) regardless of how moral or immoral there lifestyle is, no one should ever imply that resisting immoral behavior is a judgement about a persons morality.

As mortals all we have the understanding and worthiness to judge are actions, we do not know anyone well enough to judge a person. Only Christ understands us deeply and personally enough to judge anyone, because only he suffered everything that we will ever suffer, one can only judge a person if they have suffered what that person has suffered, so by nature everyone but Christ is ineligible from ever judging a person righteously.

[lazarus]

What seems to be missing from this thread is the oath and covenant of the priesthood, as defined in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants wherein priesthood holders -- including especially Church leadership -- are promised specific physical blessings for honoring their priesthood and magnifying their callings. If you were to meet, say, L. Tom Perry, you wouldn't for one second think that man is 88 years old. In fact, you'd be shocked if you didn't already know it.

It has been my privilege to meet several of these "elderly" men recently and in the past and without exception they are completely engaged, modern, aware and conversant on topics relating to not only middle-aged parents like myself but also on topics important to the youth, like my children. They are qualified through years of service in ways many outside the Church never see nor understand. You simply cannot compare Pope Benedict -- and I mean no disrespect to him -- to the Lord's annointed. These are NOT old men.

[blueadept]

Only extremest take the "your with me or against me" position on anything, I do my best to love everyone (though this is a work in progress)

I agree this is constant work in progress. Even though I've always been raised Catholic, I'm technically a 6th generation Mormon on my father's side. Due to the difficulties of my father's/grandfather's generation that doesn't represent very well LDS family values, my particular generation is making progress 'doing our best to love everyone (though this is a work in progress)' in adjusting attitudes.

[blueadept]

What seems to be missing from this thread is the oath and covenant of the priesthood, as defined in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants wherein priesthood holders -- including especially Church leadership -- are promised specific physical blessings for honoring their priesthood and magnifying their callings. If you were to meet, say, L. Tom Perry, you wouldn't for one second think that man is 88 years old. In fact, you'd be shocked if you didn't already know it.

It has been my privilege to meet several of these "elderly" men recently and in the past and without exception they are completely engaged, modern, aware and conversant on topics relating to not only middle-aged parents like myself but also on topics important to the youth, like my children. They are qualified through years of service in ways many outside the Church never see nor understand. (removed... ) These are NOT old men.

Thank you for the reference and that helped (but removing the unnecessary part).

[LDS Guy 1986]

Thank you for the reference and that helped (but removing the unnecessary part).

Well as a Catholic is seems unnecessary only if you disregard that the LDS see our Apostles as the Lord's Anointed leaders for the Earth. Just as Catholics see the Pope as the Lord's Anointed Leader, when in interfaith discussions one has to tolerate other's faith even if they disagree with there faith, IMO.

[blueadept]

Well as a Catholic is seems unnecessary only if you disregard that the LDS see our Apostles as the Lord's Anointed leaders for the Earth. Just as Catholics see the Pope as the Lord's Anointed Leader, when in interfaith discussions one has to tolerate other's faith even if they disagree with there faith, IMO.

We both share the similar thought. For LDS, the prophet is not just the prophet for LDS believers. I would say Catholics have the same viewpoint in regards to the Pope.

I inferred from lazurus's comment that we should NOT compare the two leaders based on his observations. IMO, it distracts from the conversation.

[LDSToronto]

It's a hard question to answer, blue, because old age can represent opposite concepts. On the one hand, the aged can be seen as sage, wise, experienced, morally rooted, stable. They can also be seen as irrelevant, out-of-touch, not sharp of mind, error-prone, old-fashioned, feeble, weak.

The Book of Mormon shows prophets who are young and vital, with wisdom coming from God. No experience necessary, because God provides. However, statements have been made by some members that old age brings wisdom and experience. Personally, I'm not interested in the wisdom that old age and experience brings, when it comes to prophets and apostles. I'm interested in understanding if the prophets and apostles are receiving divine wisdom.

Thus, I am concerned about aged men performing as prophets, seers, and revelators, because anyone old enough can offer the same advice and wisdom that current apostles offer now. Show me a young Moroni or Nephi, filled with the power of God, who clearly displays prophetic insight. Now that would be something unique in the LDS church.

H.

Since this quote has caused some distress around here, let me clarify. This is not a pot-shot at the Twelve. What I am saying is that there is nothing unique or extraordinary about the prophetic statements that the Twelve make, compared to the advice of their contemporaries. If a 20 year old were given the mantle of prophecy, and was bold with his dispensation of prophetic insight, that would be different. That would be unique and would dispel any doubt that a prophet is merely an old man giving the advice based on life experience.

H.

[TAO]

Toronto, I would propose to you that the church youth are not as out of touch with the apostles and prophets as you might think.

Yah, sometimes waking up for seminary is hard.

Yah, sometimes wearing modest clothing is hard (though considerably easier than waking up for seminary).

Yah, sometimes listening to the right music is hard (somewhere in the middle of those two).

But you know what... I have found youth in the church wear more modest clothing and listen to better music then their non-church friends. Because the youth are in connection with the apostles - oftentimes we each just have one or two bad habits that we struggle with getting over. None of these three that I listed here are my problem - I have another more serious one - but that problem doesn't make me not connected with the apostles - in fact, it has drove me to them.

I would say that the youth holds to the apostles and prophets as well as they hold onto their priesthood leaders (locally), which is pretty good, at least in my ward.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[blueadept]

Toronto, I would propose to you that the church youth are not as out of touch with the apostles and prophets as you might think.

Yah, sometimes waking up for seminary is hard.

Yah, sometimes wearing modest clothing is hard (though considerably easier than waking up for seminary).

Yah, sometimes listening to the right music is hard (somewhere in the middle of those two).

But you know what... I have found youth in the church wear more modest clothing and listen to better music then their non-church friends. Because the youth are in connection with the apostles - oftentimes we each just have one or two bad habits that we struggle with getting over. None of these three that I listed here are my problem - I have another more serious one - but that problem doesn't make me not connected with the apostles - in fact, it has drove me to them.

I would say that the youth holds to the apostles and prophets as well as they hold onto their priesthood leaders (locally), which is pretty good, at least in my ward.

Best Wishes,

TAO

I'm rather proud at how well my Catholic kids are modest, careful what they listen to, do ALL their church functions especially with doing all their activities so they can see the Pope this summer with 200,000 + other young Catholics in Spain. They are persevering I appreciate the young ladies they are becoming in being an example to their peers. Yeah..

[TAO]

I'm rather proud at how well my Catholic kids are modest, careful what they listen to, do ALL their church functions especially with doing all their activities so they can see the Pope this summer with 200,000 + other young Catholics in Spain. They are persevering I appreciate the young ladies they are becoming in being an example to their peers. Yeah..

Hehe, lucky lucky XD.

[lazarus]

I inferred from lazurus's comment that we should NOT compare the two leaders based on his observations. IMO, it distracts from the conversation.

You're right. Sorry about that.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Since this quote has caused some distress around here, let me clarify. This is not a pot-shot at the Twelve. What I am saying is that there is nothing unique or extraordinary about the prophetic statements that the Twelve make, compared to the advice of their contemporaries. If a 20 year old were given the mantle of prophecy, and was bold with his dispensation of prophetic insight, that would be different. That would be unique and would dispel any doubt that a prophet is merely an old man giving the advice based on life experience.

H.

Who here said propheitc abilites derive from old age?

No one that I have see post here said that, we all know that there abilities are derived from Heavenly Father not there age. Christ has called several younger apostles to lead his Church, look at Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both were young men when called as Apostles of the Lord. Look at President Monson called at 36 years old, when he was called as an Apostle he the next youngest Apostle (Gordon B. Hinkley) was 17 years old than he if I recall correctly.

Yes, in this dispensation we have yet to see a teenager called to the Apostleship, but there is less than 5 instances in all the recorded scriptures when someone younger than adulthood is called as a prophet. Maybe that's because the Lord knows that most children are not prepared to be prophets, but in some cases the only person virtuous and humble enough to be called is a youth.

The youth callings are the exception to the rule not the norm, the Lord can call who he will, but that doesn't mean he is going to call a child every time or even call a child regularly, in fact is quite rare for him to call a youth as a prophet.

It seems that you like to cling to rarities and present them as the commonly occurring event, such a practice is bound to only bring disappointment.

[BCSpace]

The question is simple though, Are LDS concerned about the increasing age of their Top 15? IMO....you're not but no one has answered yet.

The Church has been well led so far so I see nothing wrong with it. Out of consideration for the indiviudal person, I would not mind seeing a situation where they are allowed to step aside in favor of the next person while they are still hale (like the long-lived kings of Numenor), but it's not necessary.

[LDSToronto]

Who here said propheitc abilites derive from old age?

Nobody did. I was answering BlueAdept's question - "is there no concern on this matter in regards to the increasing ages of the Apostles?"

Am I wrong in sharing an opinion contrary to the majority? Or should I have stood in line to echo the strain of "NO! There is no concern! Age doesn't matter!"?

No one that I have see post here said that, we all know that there abilities are derived from Heavenly Father not there age. Christ has called several younger apostles to lead his Church, look at Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both were young men when called as Apostles of the Lord. Look at President Monson called at 36 years old, when he was called as an Apostle he the next youngest Apostle (Gordon B. Hinkley) was 17 years old than he if I recall correctly.

Once again, I was answering BlueAdept's question, and my answer was the only contrary opinion. Sure, Monson was 36 when called as an apostle. What extraordinary prophetic insight did he offer that made him a stand-out?

It seems that you like to cling to rarities and present them as the commonly occurring event, such a practice is bound to only bring disappointment.

Huh? I presented an opinion - that was all that was required from the original inquiry. And my opinion is that it would be nice to see prophets who dispense prophetic insight, not wisdom gained through age. And to show that, it would be nice to see a prophet who was unencumbered by age.

H.

[mfbukowski]

Or should I have stood in line to echo the strain of "NO! There is no concern! Age doesn't matter!"?

Yes. That would have been nice. Thanks for asking.

[blueadept]

Yes. That would have been nice. Thanks for asking.

When I attended GC a couple of years back, the love of the LDS folks have for the President of the Church and the Apostles as they entered could easily be felt by anyone. I imagine it will be similar when I see the Pope this summer with all the youth that will be there. I noted the number of protesters that shows up at GC. Since the event I'm attending is ten times the size of GC, I'm going to be curious if the protesters will be ten times the size. We shall see.

I believe this thread has run it's course. The love that LDS folks have for the President and the Apostles is a given. Lazurus's comment '...as defined in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants wherein priesthood holders -- including especially Church leadership -- are promised specific physical blessings for honoring their priesthood and magnifying their callings' does help me as a non-member to appreciate why this is a non issue. It's always good to learn something new.