Mideast Unrest

[Messenger]

It all started in Tunisia when a struggling 26-year-old university graduate lit himself on fire after police confiscated his fruit and vegetable cart in December. The unrest quickly spread to nearly every Middle Eastern nation, an unrest which is asking for basic human rights; the right to run your business and have it not taken away by the government. It was a war cry that spread to the entire middle eastern nations of Tunisia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Syria and others.

The Sunday after it happened, my Gospel Doctrine teacher (BYU-I Professor) asked us this

Edited March 31, 2011 by Messenger

[bookofmormontruth]

It all started in Tunisia when a struggling 26-year-old university graduate lit himself on fire after police confiscated his fruit and vegetable cart in December. The unrest quickly spread to nearly every Middle Eastern nation, an unrest which is asking for basic human rights; the right to run your business and have it not taken away by the government. It was a war cry that spread to the entire middle eastern nations of Tunisia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Syria and others.

The Sunday after it happened, my Gospel Doctrine teacher (BYU-I Professor) asked us this

[krose]

One never knows, but that seems far from likely.

You may have noticed, as I have, that groups of very conservative, very religious people tend to want a theocratic government when given a choice. There is very little popular interest in allowing freedom of choice when it comes to other religions.

Without the courts to protect religious minorities, even here in the USA, we would have Christian prayers and bible reading in public schools, and religious monuments in courtrooms. Many Americans even now believe the US Constitution supports official state religions (as long as they're Christian, of course), and that the doctrine of separation of Church and State is not valid. Many state constitutions specify that an atheist may not hold public office.

Just look at how so many US Christians have reacted to the building of mosques in various spots in the country, working to get them shut down. And that's in the so-called "beacon of freedom." I doubt that a Muslim-dominated country would ever willingly allow Christian missionaries in.

[Messenger]

I doubt that a Muslim-dominated country would ever willingly allow Christian missionaries in.

We'll see.

[thesometimesaint]

Krose:

LDS missionaries are in Indonesia(the largest Muslim country in the world).

[The Nehor]

My dad and I just had a conversation about this. He is not optimistic. He thinks that the leadership in most Arab countries were loons but were at least pragmatic loons.

I am more cautiously optimistic. Hopefully this is a second shot at Islamic democracy. However, I could see this going very very badly.

Could be anything from the opening steps to the battle of Armageddon (though I doubt it) to more of the same stuff with different leaders to a new era for the Middle East. In any case, should be interesting to watch. One also can't help offering up a few prayers for them.

[krose]

We'll see.

True that.

[dirtius maximus]

yes "we'll see" seems the prudent response. As I have heard virtually no country in the Middle East to include Israel, permits scriptures to be brought in other than the scripture of the State Religion.

And we have yet to see what all these regime changes are leading too, how "tolerant" will new Islamic based regime be of non-muslims or those of different "sects" within Islam.

[krose]

Krose:

LDS missionaries are in Indonesia(the largest Muslim country in the world).

Point taken. Indonesia deserves a lot of credit for overcoming a natural impulse and including freedom of religion in their constitution, but I fear they are not likely to be the model for any emerging governments that might result from the current rebellions.

Who knows? I could be wrong, and Messenger's vision of a batch of new democracies that welcome religious diversity will come to pass. I'm skeptical (of course, I tend to be about most things).

I do hope it happens that way. I don't really care about getting LDS missionaries into places, but I'm a huge proponent of religious freedom.

[thesometimesaint]

krose:

I'm a big believer in religious freedom too. But I leave it up to the individual to decide and not some governmental or opposing religion to do the deciding.

[Garden Girl]

We can say to ourselves, as I indeed did, surely, this is the end of times. But how can it be when these countries do not currently allow LDS missionaries in? There must be teaching in every nation before the end has come. Could this be a chance for that to happen?

Don't discount modern technology... don't forget, one of the reasons a lot of these countries are starting to demand their freedoms is because of what they have seen in democratic societies via the internet, ipods, etc. The gospel will reach every nation via not only missionaries, but technology... the world is becoming smaller and smaller when someone can hold a device in their hand that brings the "world" to them, including messages on Christianity... and the Church's websites...

GG

[Jeff K.]

Until the Middle East sheds its tribalism (consider 70% of the marriages in Iraq are between first cousins) you will not have peace. The relationship is based upon enima of my enima is my friend, which eventually leads to a generalized enemata, not a pretty sight.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Jeff K.

[volgadon]

yes "we'll see" seems the prudent response. As I have heard virtually no country in the Middle East to include Israel, permits scriptures to be brought in other than the scripture of the State Religion.

Seeing as the IDF will issue you a copy of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, or Quran, forgive me for considering your post a little inaccurate. Having also been involoved in ordering material from the distribution center for our branch in Israel, I can say for a fact that there is no ban on importing scriptures belonging to religions other than Judaism.

[dirtius maximus]

Seeing as the IDF will issue you a copy of the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, or Quran, forgive me for considering your post a little inaccurate. Having also been involoved in ordering material from the distribution center for our branch in Israel, I can say for a fact that there is no ban on importing scriptures belonging to religions other than Judaism.

the general idea still stands, does Israel or any other Middle East Country allow active missionary work? My point is, and it is general true, the Middle East including Israel are not exactly the most friendly places for the non-State endorsed religion. There are Jews in Iran, there are Christians in other places, but that does not change the general treatment of non-State religions.

[volgadon]

the general idea still stands, does Israel or any other Middle East Country allow active missionary work? My point is, and it is general true, the Middle East including Israel are not exactly the most friendly places for the non-State endorsed religion. There are Jews in Iran, there are Christians in other places, but that does not change the general treatment of non-State religions.

Israeli law places the following restrictions on proselyting. No proselyting minors without parental consent, and no offering of financial incentives for proselytes. Other than that, one can proselyte. There are certain groups, such as our church, the 7Day Adventists, and the Bahais, which have agreed not to proselyte. An Israeli Jew can become Christian or Muslim or even Buddhist if he likes. Jordan also allows Christian to proselyte other Christians.

[Messenger]

Since, providing the LDS truth to all nations (D&C 90:11) is a prerequisite to the second coming, it would seem a simple truth that those countries that dont have LDS teachings now, will have. Its simply a matter of time.

Joseph Smith Mathew

31 And again, this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked;

32 And again shall the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled.

33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled.

35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my words shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled.

36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory;

[FrozenChosen]

This whole line of reasoning smacks of intolerance. I suppose in academic settings debates like these might be considered fair. But I can't help thinking that the Lord is not pleased with us when we make such sweeping generalizations.

[The Nehor]

Until the Middle East sheds its tribalism (consider 70% of the marriages in Iraq are between first cousins) you will not have peace. The relationship is based upon enima of my enima is my friend, which eventually leads to a generalized enemata, not a pretty sight.

Are enemas this big of a problem in the Middle East?

[Messenger]

This whole line of reasoning smacks of intolerance. I suppose in academic settings debates like these might be considered fair. But I can't help thinking that the Lord is not pleased with us when we make such sweeping generalizations.

I don

[Biz]

I would not go so far as to say it is a miracle. On my mission I baptized a Iranian man and he received the Aaronic Priesthood. I do not think the Church will ever be in Iran. I look at the fulfillment of that prophecy to possibly be fulfilled in the same manner in which baptized the Iranian man on my mission. Personally I would not look to far into it.

Biz

[Biz]

.

[Messenger]

I would not go so far as to say it is a miracle. On my mission I baptized a Iranian man and he received the Aaronic Priesthood. I do not think the Church will ever be in Iran. I look at the fulfillment of that prophecy to possibly be fulfilled in the same manner in which baptized the Iranian man on my mission. Personally I would not look to far into it.

Biz

What does it mean to be in every country?

Source: http://lds.org/ensign/1991/09/i-have-a-question/i-have-a-question?lang=eng&query=every+country

President Spencer W. Kimball made this significant and prophetic statement:

“We have seen the ways in which the Lord is extending his work as we become prepared to assist him. Eventually the gospel will be taken to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In the meantime, we should give our very best efforts, both as individuals and as a church, to those responsibilities to which we have already been assigned. As we learn to give all our heart, might, mind, and strength to our present assignments, we will be prepared to assist the Lord in furthering his work in other areas.”

The Prophet Joseph Smith stated:

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” (History of the Church, 4:540.)

There's always room for interpretation. But, it would seem that our own efforts in our own responsibilities will prepare us so that we can send the gospel message to the world. Spencer W. Kimber also relates the following ....

“When we have increased the missionaries from the organized areas of the Church to a number close to their potential, that is, every able and worthy boy in the Church on a mission; when every stake and mission abroad is furnishing enough missionaries for that country; when we have used our qualified men to help the apostles to open these new fields of labor; when we have used the satellite and related discoveries to their greatest potential and all of the media—the papers, magazines, television, radio—all in their greatest power; when we have organized numerous other stakes which will be springboards; when we have recovered from inactivity the numerous young men who are now unordained and unmissioned and unmarried; then, and not until then, shall we approach the insistence of our Lord and Master to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Edward L. Kimball, ed., The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, p. 585.)

[Calm]

My husband just recently met a young man who was a missionary in India who informed him about missionary work in the region. There is a significant population of LDS in India, but more on point to this discussion is that there are LDS missionaries in Pakistan, homegrown, but still missionaries.

Pakistan is included in the India New Delhi mission, there is also the India Bangalore mission and the Singapore mission.

http://lds.org/ensig...india+new+delhi

India

Nearly 7,000 members live in India, where the predominant religions are Hinduism and Islam. Most members live in two districts in the south, including Bangalore, where the India Bangalore Mission is headquartered.

“When I last visited India there were only a few hundred members in the entire country,” Elder Oaks said at a district conference in New Delhi, the capital of India. “Now it thrills me to see how our membership has increased in numbers and maturity.”

Though it can be challenging, members of the Church in India, like many other Christians, are permitted to practice their religion. “They treasure their temple sealings,” Elder Oaks said, noting that 93 percent of the endowed members in India hold current temple recommends.

Pakistan

In Pakistan, Elder and Sister Oaks and Elder and Sister Hallstrom visited the homes of various members and conducted a weekday fireside.

Only native Pakistani missionaries serve in this Islamic republic of about 170 million people, a number that includes about 3 million Christians. “It is not easy to be a Christian in Pakistan,” said Elder Oaks. Many Christians live together in colonies.

An interesting article from 93 about the Church in this area of Asia: http://lds.org/liahona/1993/10/the-church-in-india-pakistan-bangladesh-and-sri-lanka?lang=eng&query=pakistan

Edited April 9, 2011 by calmoriah

[Biz]

What does it mean to be in every country?

Source: http://lds.org/ensig...y=every+country

President Spencer W. Kimball made this significant and prophetic statement:

“We have seen the ways in which the Lord is extending his work as we become prepared to assist him. Eventually the gospel will be taken to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In the meantime, we should give our very best efforts, both as individuals and as a church, to those responsibilities to which we have already been assigned. As we learn to give all our heart, might, mind, and strength to our present assignments, we will be prepared to assist the Lord in furthering his work in other areas.”

The Prophet Joseph Smith stated:

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” (History of the Church, 4:540.)

There's always room for interpretation. But, it would seem that our own efforts in our own responsibilities will prepare us so that we can send the gospel message to the world. Spencer W. Kimber also relates the following ....

“When we have increased the missionaries from the organized areas of the Church to a number close to their potential, that is, every able and worthy boy in the Church on a mission; when every stake and mission abroad is furnishing enough missionaries for that country; when we have used our qualified men to help the apostles to open these new fields of labor; when we have used the satellite and related discoveries to their greatest potential and all of the media—the papers, magazines, television, radio—all in their greatest power; when we have organized numerous other stakes which will be springboards; when we have recovered from inactivity the numerous young men who are now unordained and unmissioned and unmarried; then, and not until then, shall we approach the insistence of our Lord and Master to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Edward L. Kimball, ed., The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, p. 585.)

Great insights! My comments below are not a rebuttal but simply a possible interpretation.

Jurisdictional territories within the Church are possibly simply a creation of "Man" in which they create in effort to be as effective as possible in overseeing and assigning duties. Who is to say my great brother Hussain who was baptized and received the Aaronic priesthood can't literally fulfill the prophesy's by being a member missionary in Iran. After all, President McKay says every member is a missionary. He and others can take the gospel to their countries. Who is to say the internet is the enabling devices that will fulfill the prophecy. I think the Savior will come as a thief in the night because there is so much we do not understand about the prophesies of his coming. It obviously could go in many directions. So long as we take the prophecies literal and require literal fulfillment in order to satisfy our checklist for Jesus Christ's return the greater the chance we will not be prepared to meet him. It seems to me the it is going to take the literal coming of Jesus Christ to make any significant changes in the Middle East. Therefore, I am of the opinion the Middle East countries may never open their doors to missionaries with name tags on the ground. Opening their doors could simply mean the internet is open to its fullest extent and not cut off from the world within their country. Then our internet missionaries can communicate with them and prophecy is fulfilled.

Biz

[Messenger]

Great insights! My comments below are not a rebuttal but simply a possible interpretation.

Jurisdictional territories within the Church are possibly simply a creation of "Man" in which they create in effort to be as effective as possible in overseeing and assigning duties. Who is to say my great brother Hussain who was baptized and received the Aaronic priesthood can't literally fulfill the prophesy's by being a member missionary in Iran. After all, President McKay says every member is a missionary. He and others can take the gospel to their countries. Who is to say the internet is the enabling devices that will fulfill the prophecy. I think the Savior will come as a thief in the night because there is so much we do not understand about the prophesies of his coming. It obviously could go in many directions. So long as we take the prophecies literal and require literal fulfillment in order to satisfy our checklist for Jesus Christ's return the greater the chance we will not be prepared to meet him. It seems to me the it is going to take the literal coming of Jesus Christ to make any significant changes in the Middle East. Therefore, I am of the opinion the Middle East countries may never open their doors to missionaries with name tags on the ground. Opening their doors could simply mean the internet is open to its fullest extent and not cut off from the world within their country. Then our internet missionaries can communicate with them and prophecy is fulfilled.

Biz

Biz,

The internet is, and will continue to be the way truth is brought to many people. No longer will ill-willed people have control over all the facts so that they can twist it to their benefit. People will decide with what they know, not simply what they have been told.

This makes me think how thankful I am that we as member give talks, teach classes and participate in our wards. We get our own revelation and act on what we know to be true.

Mark