How would LDS members handle an apostolic schism or apostasy in the present day?

[SkepticTheist]

This came up in another thread.

I thought I would start a thread on this.

Though this is unlikely to happen, that there would be a schism, or apostasy of all Church leaders in our day, I still think the hypothetical thing is worth talking about.

I think the model for what should happen in the case of a schism has its precedent with what happened between Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young where there was a controversy.

In that case my best guess would be:

(1) The members should seek personal revelation on who are the true messengers

(2) The members should likely follow the majority of the apostleship that remains.

(3) The members should pay attention to where the majority of the membership follows as it is by common consent that they are led.

As for whether all of the church leadership goes into apostasy, or whether such a thing would be possible, that one is without precedent, and I simply don't know where that would go.

Plenty of splinter groups have claimed this. At that point, do you just pick your favorite splinter group? Do you try to get revelation on somebody that theoretically has some kind of keys and whether you should follow them?

Should you bag it all and go off on your own and just do the best you can on your own without affiliation with any group, recognizing that you have no keys to keep any segment of the Church going?

If that is the case, do you cease to do any ordinances like the sacrament because you know that there are no keys left? Do you just have prayer meetings and study groups and try to keep a few people together, and cease with ordinances altogether? Would that be preferable to affiliation with splinter groups or schismatic movements? I have no idea. This is all hypothetical of course.

A third scenario. Say something unthinkable happens and all the apostleship are killed. Does that mean that the seventy as a quorum have authority to reorganize the apostleship?

Or a fourth scenario. Say most seventies and apostles die leaving only one or two. Do they have keys at all to reorganize?

[cinepro]

I once had a Gospel Doctrine teacher who more than once taught that, should something like that happen, we should go with the majority of Apostles. I think he had a source for that theory, but I can't remember what he said it was.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I believe the examples of various men in scripture, including father Lehi and Alma (the elder) show that "going with the majority" is not the answer, a majority does not make right. Prayer and supplication to God for direction is the answer.

[Deborah]

From this site: Teachings of prophets

Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported:

[Daniel Peterson]

Going with the majority of prophets and apostles is rather different than going with the majority of men or of people generally.

The danger of going with one's own inspiration -- ultimately, one must, of course (but I think that the institutional framework is there to serve as a brake on unrestrained individual whimsy) -- is that one might end up in ever smaller groups, dismissing everybody else as being off the straight path. This has happened repeatedly in sectarian Protestantism, and in Islam (e.g., the Shi'ites sever themselves from the mainstream, and then the Isma

[Duncan]

In my Stake since about 1999 there have been three schisms all somewhat independant of each other. Three self proclaimed leaders wanting converts and teaching nutty stuff, and they took people with them. It got to the point that one of the Seventy had to come up and help out with the first situation. I remember coming back from my mission in the middle of April and then two weeks later we had Stake Conference with H. David Burton presiding and when they did the sustainings part, several people opposed and he talked with them. This was after that other General Authority came up some months previously to deal with stuff. I honestly think that most people really didn't know what was going on as the situations were confined to the ward level, except for one case and the conference we had.

[Sky]

Our best bet would be to stick with the President/prophet of the Church and/or the majority of the living apostles. Next comes the Seventies quorums. I would steer clear of all the splinter groups

[Mike Richards]

An associated question that I think is worth considering is what could cause such a schism. I've occasionally wondered what doctrines are accepted by many members of the church, but don't really have a foundation in truth, that have the potential of being eliminated by future revelation. For example, what if the brethren (or some of them) reinstated polygamy, allowed women to have the priesthood, made not recycling a severe sin, made obesity a temple recommend denying offense, added aspartame to the word of wisdom, etc?

I agree with the previous responses, following the majority of the twelve seems to be the right thing to do. I'm sure I personally would pray and seek personal revelation and then do what I felt was right.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Our best bet would be to stick with the President/prophet of the Church and/or the majority of the living apostles. Next comes the Seventies quorums. I would steer clear of all the splinter groups

[Monster]

I guess when women get the priesthood we will find out.

[SkepticTheist]

I believe the examples of various men in scripture, including father Lehi and Alma (the elder) show that "going with the majority" is not the answer, a majority does not make right. Prayer and supplication to God for direction is the answer.

I think that is a flawed thing because there is evidence that Lehi had keys and was one of the prophets in association with Jeremiah, as Nephi mentions that they knew that Jeremiah was thrown in prison.

That means that if anything, Lehi as a precedent is supportive of the idea of following at least one of the brethren that is not in apostasy. Lehi would qualify as one of the "brethren" of his day. When there was a revelation for the Lehites as a people before Lehi's death, the Lord would generally go to Lehi himself, such as the revelation to go after the brass plates, to go get the girls to marry, and so forth.

[Sky]

I am sure that is exactly what the priests of King Noah said about that crazy apostate Alma.

I guess if that helps you to justify your departure from the mainstream LDS Church and being a part of a splinter group yourself, then go ahead.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I think that is a flawed thing because there is evidence that Lehi had keys and was one of the prophets in association with Jeremiah, as Nephi mentions that they knew that Jeremiah was thrown in prison.

That means that if anything, Lehi as a precedent is supportive of the idea of following at least one of the brethren that is not in apostasy. Lehi would qualify as one of the "brethren" of his day. When there was a revelation for the Lehites as a people before Lehi's death, the Lord would generally go to Lehi himself, such as the revelation to go after the brass plates, to go get the girls to marry, and so forth.

The text of the Book of Mormon is clear that the leaders of the church in Lehi's time were not God's chosen prophets...

1 Nephi 4:26

26 And he, supposing that I spake of the brethren of the church, and that I was truly that Laban whom I had slain, wherefore he did follow me.

The Priesthood can exist without the church, the church can't exist without the Priesthood.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I guess if that helps you to justify your departure from the mainstream LDS Church and being a part of a splinter group yourself, then go ahead.

Thanks for your support.

[SkepticTheist]

Nutty stuff.

My old home teaching companion from Magna, Utah one day said that he was getting revelations. I warned him to keep them to himself. Then he said that some of the scriptures were wrong, and that he had to go challenge the Bishop. I told him never to go up against priesthood authority. Then he said, "I've got a revelation that what you said is true." Needless to say, that "revelation" lasted only about two more years. I talked to the Bishop of that ward at the time and told him that i thought what was going on with my friend was harmless. In the meantime I moved from Magna to Riverton in 2001. He kept coming out to my house because we were friends at the time. But his revelations got weirder and weirder, until he said that he had a revelation on the keys to time travel, and weird stuff. Anyway, so I found out that he was recruiting people for a secret cult that he was forming over the Internet. I decided finally to tell his new bishop who had been called since I left everything that I knew. I asked for an answer from the Lord if it was his will that I should, and he let me know that I should. So I wrote that Bishop a letter and hand-delivered it to his house about what I knew about this guy. that bishop called me up and came out to my house and thanked me and talked to me about more of the details.

Next, they pulled that guy into the bishop's office and gave him a talking to. That put him in his place for a while, but I think he still kept up with the secret cult and lied about it. Anyway, finally he declared himself as prophet and they excommunicated him in 2004. At that point, I severed the friendship, even though I had tried to help him stay in the church for as long as I could.

Needless to say, he formally formed the cult, and it became a polygamy/swinger cult. And of course, he claimed to have the keys to time travel, and that he was the Holy Ghost incarnate, because he could be the holy ghost in the present in the spirit, and then go back in time and incarnate again, so he could be present in more than one form at once. Weird Weird stuff. things got weirder and weirder until now I'm sure you have heard about him on the news and that he is going to prison. He led his cult on up to Idaho, and then to Montana.

In my Stake since about 1999 there have been three schisms all somewhat independant of each other. Three self proclaimed leaders wanting converts and teaching nutty stuff, and they took people with them. It got to the point that one of the Seventy had to come up and help out with the first situation. I remember coming back from my mission in the middle of April and then two weeks later we had Stake Conference with H. David Burton presiding and when they did the sustainings part, several people opposed and he talked with them. This was after that other General Authority came up some months previously to deal with stuff. I honestly think that most people really didn't know what was going on as the situations were confined to the ward level, except for one case and the conference we had.

[SkepticTheist]

Or at least that the Elder's of the Jews were in apostasy which may constitute some of the brethren.

Jeremiah, Lehi and others on the other hand were not in apostasy.

Your claim about the priesthood existing without the church is precisely one of the claims made by the polygamist schisms from the LDS Church.

The text of the Book of Mormon is clear that the leaders of the church in Lehi's time were not God's chosen prophets...

The Priesthood can exist without the church, the church can't exist without the Priesthood.

[Duncan]

Nutty stuff.

My old home teaching companion from Magna, Utah one day said that he was getting revelations. I warned him to keep them to himself. Then he said that some of the scriptures were wrong, and that he had to go challenge the Bishop. I told him never to go up against priesthood authority. Then he said, "I've got a revelation that what you said is true." Needless to say, that "revelation" lasted only about two more years. I talked to the Bishop of that ward at the time and told him that i thought what was going on with my friend was harmless. In the meantime I moved from Magna to Riverton in 2001. He kept coming out to my house because we were friends at the time. But his revelations got weirder and weirder, until he said that he had a revelation on the keys to time travel, and weird stuff. Anyway, so I found out that he was recruiting people for a secret cult that he was forming over the Internet. I decided finally to tell his new bishop who had been called since I left everything that I knew. I asked for an answer from the Lord if it was his will that I should, and he let me know that I should. So I wrote that Bishop a letter and hand-delivered it to his house about what I knew about this guy. that bishop called me up and came out to my house and thanked me and talked to me about more of the details.

Next, they pulled that guy into the bishop's office and gave him a talking to. That put him in his place for a while, but I think he still kept up with the secret cult and lied about it. Anyway, finally he declared himself as prophet and they excommunicated him in 2004. At that point, I severed the friendship, even though I had tried to help him stay in the church for as long as I could.

Needless to say, he formally formed the cult, and it became a polygamy/swinger cult. And of course, he claimed to have the keys to time travel, and that he was the Holy Ghost incarnate, because he could be the holy ghost in the present in the spirit, and then go back in time and incarnate again, so he could be present in more than one form at once. Weird Weird stuff. things got weirder and weirder until now I'm sure you have heard about him on the news and that he is going to prison. He led his cult on up to Idaho, and then to Montana.

Wow, scary stuff

[Mike Reed]

the RLDS... are a schismatic sect of the mainstream LDS Church.

A highly debatable conclusion.

[Daniel Peterson]

A highly debatable conclusion.

I stand by it, and would happily debate it sometime.

But, in the brief item that I posted above, where it played a quite subsidiary and wholly illustrative function, I was content to assert it.

[bookofmormontruth]

An associated question that I think is worth considering is what could cause such a schism. I've occasionally wondered what doctrines are accepted by many members of the church, but don't really have a foundation in truth, that have the potential of being eliminated by future revelation. For example, what if the brethren (or some of them) reinstated polygamy, allowed women to have the priesthood, made not recycling a severe sin, made obesity a temple recommend denying offense, added aspartame to the word of wisdom, etc?

I agree with the previous responses, following the majority of the twelve seems to be the right thing to do. I'm sure I personally would pray and seek personal revelation and then do what I felt was right.

I wondered the same. Polygamy, new scripture and the law of consecration were on my list.

[The Nehor]

Tell God to come give me the keys and then declare myself prophet.

[bookofmormontruth]

Nutty stuff.

My old home teaching companion from Magna, Utah one day said that he was getting revelations. I warned him to keep them to himself. Then he said that some of the scriptures were wrong, and that he had to go challenge the Bishop. I told him never to go up against priesthood authority. Then he said, "I've got a revelation that what you said is true." Needless to say, that "revelation" lasted only about two more years. I talked to the Bishop of that ward at the time and told him that i thought what was going on with my friend was harmless. In the meantime I moved from Magna to Riverton in 2001. He kept coming out to my house because we were friends at the time. But his revelations got weirder and weirder, until he said that he had a revelation on the keys to time travel, and weird stuff. Anyway, so I found out that he was recruiting people for a secret cult that he was forming over the Internet. I decided finally to tell his new bishop who had been called since I left everything that I knew. I asked for an answer from the Lord if it was his will that I should, and he let me know that I should. So I wrote that Bishop a letter and hand-delivered it to his house about what I knew about this guy. that bishop called me up and came out to my house and thanked me and talked to me about more of the details.

Next, they pulled that guy into the bishop's office and gave him a talking to. That put him in his place for a while, but I think he still kept up with the secret cult and lied about it. Anyway, finally he declared himself as prophet and they excommunicated him in 2004. At that point, I severed the friendship, even though I had tried to help him stay in the church for as long as I could.

Needless to say, he formally formed the cult, and it became a polygamy/swinger cult. And of course, he claimed to have the keys to time travel, and that he was the Holy Ghost incarnate, because he could be the holy ghost in the present in the spirit, and then go back in time and incarnate again, so he could be present in more than one form at once. Weird Weird stuff. things got weirder and weirder until now I'm sure you have heard about him on the news and that he is going to prison. He led his cult on up to Idaho, and then to Montana.

Sounds like he needed a mental workup for schizophrenia more than anything.

[SkepticTheist]

I have no idea, but I wouldn't doubt it.

Sounds like he needed a mental workup for schizophrenia more than anything.

[SkepticTheist]

I guess my only question that remains is, if we were just left with seventy, do they have keys to lead the church?

Our best bet would be to stick with the President/prophet of the Church and/or the majority of the living apostles. Next comes the Seventies quorums. I would steer clear of all the splinter groups

[Messenger]

Our best bet would be to stick with the President/prophet of the Church and/or the majority of the living apostles. Next comes the Seventies quorums. I would steer clear of all the splinter groups