Messenger Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) It would seem that the politics of the world now has everyone giving an opinion about Gadhafi, and if we are (the world, NATO and anybody else) is not acting enough, doing too much, or whether our actions are just right? Perhaps a quote from Edmund Burke would put things in perspective: Edited March 29, 2011 by Messenger
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Whether people like it or not, Gadhafi was a stabilizing force in his country. With him gone "radical" Islam will take hold, as it is beginning to do in Egypt, and it will become another threat against Israel and the world.
Garden Girl Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Hello Messenger...I don't think this thread will last too long because it is too "political." It would be helpful for you to check the board guidelines if you haven't already. Political discussions have a way of getting out of hand quickly, thus we are to avoid them... from the beach on yet another rainy day... GG
Jigglysaint Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) What I want to know, is what do the General Authorities feel about the involvement in Libya? This isn't like Iraq. This time it's the people of Libya who are turning to the world for support. I think Obama is concerned that no matter what he does, it will affect his popularity. How can a president effectively rule his country if he can never win the confidence of his people?Edit: Also peace is not all about not fighting. It's about going about the best resolution to conflict. If somebody is murdering innocent people, then sometimes the only way to have peace is to prepare for war. It's how fast Obama is willing to shed blood that should be a determining factor, not if his troops do or not. Edited March 29, 2011 by Jigglysaint
Messenger Posted March 29, 2011 Author Posted March 29, 2011 What I want to know, is what do the General Authorities feel about the involvement in Libya? This isn't like Iraq. This time it's the people of Libya who are turning to the world for support. I think Obama is concerned that no matter what he does, it will affect his popularity. How can a president effectively rule his country if he can never win the confidence of his people?Edit: Also peace is not all about not fighting. It's about going about the best resolution to conflict. If somebody is murdering innocent people, then sometimes the only way to have peace is to prepare for war. It's how fast Obama is willing to shed blood that should be a determining factor, not if his troops do or not.Well, my hope of this post was to point out how changes in middle east, and yes Libya, can affect missionary work. Will what we do encourage freedom of choice? Perhaps I should have worded the poll differently, but wanted to have a dialogue on that. But if it gets pulled, I'll have to cut to the chase on the next poll.
Nathair/|\ Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 You forgot the "Jason" option and the Don't know option.My feelings are too political to go into here, I'd be happy to talk about it elsewhere if you care.JigglySaint, I loved your use of the word Rule in your post.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Do we really need another war for oil?How much oil does Afghanistan produce? This is why political threads don
dirtius maximus Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 The situation seems to give rise that the United States will hold to grudge and serve a very cold vengeance. It seems that way with Iraq and Hussein and it would seem that way with Libya and Pan Am flight 103. This is just one take on the issue. Another take is this. As I understand American Govnerment and such, treason can be seeking to overthrow the Gov. by anything other than Constitutional means. This would suggest that the American government would use deadly force in the event of an uprising in the States that sought a change in government by force. While I understand the interest of other nations in protecting civilians, I do not understand the interest of other nations essentially helping the none government side of a civil war. The only explanation I can think of is that the nations involved want a regime change, and will use their resources to assist in that regime change. Involving oneself in regime changes provides little to no credibility when it comes to future military involvement; the military actions become suspect as to true motive.
dirtius maximus Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 How much oil does Afghanistan produce?I would say that is not the correct question to the statement "Do we need another war for oil".Afghanistan is rich in supply of minerals and other things that economies hold precious. Such untapped minerals reserves is a reason given by some that Russia invaded. Whether Afghanistan has untapped oil reserves is the better question. The military industrial complex being the man behind the curtain direct or encouraging some US Military engagements has been a concern of the American foot soldier since at least the late 1800's.
krose Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 How much oil does Afghanistan produce? Natural gas, pipelines, and Haliburton. That's all I'll say about that.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) I would say that is not the correct question to the statement "Do we need another war for oil".Afghanistan is rich in supply of minerals and other things that economies hold precious. Such untapped minerals reserves is a reason given by some that Russia invaded. Whether Afghanistan has untapped oil reserves is the better question. The military industrial complex being the man behind the curtain direct or encouraging some US Military engagements has been a concern of the American foot soldier since at least the late 1800's.So we are just there for their natural resources, we as a people are that evil? Having served in the Army and knowing of our humanitarian efforts around the world I find the suggestion as a personal insult. This is why such debates don't belong on a faith based website. Edited March 31, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Pa Pa:True enough. But I think the faithful can and should know enough about the greater world that we live in to have an informed discussion about its many wars. Afghan itself doesn't produce much in the way of oil, but it is a very short route through Afghanistan to the Gulf of India. The massive oil/natural gas of the Caspian Sea region is what is propelling the worlds interested there.
dirtius maximus Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 So we are just there for their natural resources, we as a people are that evil? Having served in the Army and knowing of our humanitarian efforts around the world I find the suggestion as a personal insult. you can be offended if you like, that is your choice.Did I say the United States was there ONLY for the minerals? No I did not. I only stated that who is pulling the strings has been a concern of the foot soldier for a long time. A US Medal of Honor recipient gave a speech about his concern of the military industrial complex, this soldier stated that immediately after the military had taken some ground somewhere there was a US Corporation right behind them to exploit the minerals - this speech was given in the 1930's I believe. I have talked with Special Forces in Afghanistan who have similar statements i.e. that after taken a hill a US Corporation is right there to exploit the minerals in the hill. Who is pulling the strings is a reasonable concern for the foot soldier.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 you can be offended if you like, that is your choice.Did I say the United States was there ONLY for the minerals? No I did not. I only stated that who is pulling the strings has been a concern of the foot soldier for a long time. A US Medal of Honor recipient gave a speech about his concern of the military industrial complex, this soldier stated that immediately after the military had taken some ground somewhere there was a US Corporation right behind them to exploit the minerals - this speech was given in the 1930's I believe. I have talked with Special Forces in Afghanistan who have similar statements i.e. that after taken a hill a US Corporation is right there to exploit the minerals in the hill. Who is pulling the strings is a reasonable concern for the foot soldier.I flew medivac
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Pa Pa:True enough. But I think the faithful can and should know enough about the greater world that we live in to have an informed discussion about its many wars. Afghan itself doesn't produce much in the way of oil, but it is a very short route through Afghanistan to the Gulf of India. The massive oil/natural gas of the Caspian Sea region is what is propelling the worlds interested there.So this is what you think of America?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 look up Smedly Butler:I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902
BookofMormonLuvr Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) look up Smedly Butler:I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902 Edited April 1, 2011 by BookofMormonLuvr
dirtius maximus Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 I have no idea what your agenda is, and based on the post don't care.you took offense at the suggestion or inference that US military actions are not always pure. Smedly Butler is a Medal of Honor Recipient, I provided his first hand account of his concern as a foot soldier that he was just a pawn for the Military Industrial complex, and as I stated who is pulling the string has been a concern of the foot soldier for a very long time.
Stargazer Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 It is now days later and it appears that Ghadaffi's forces are going to be able to put down the rebellion. BTW, I voted "too little" not because I thought we should have been more involved, but because if we were going to get involved, then we needed to have been involved earlier and in greater force. Taking out his air force this late in the game and stopping there is a waste of time and effort.
thesometimesaint Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Pa Pa:What do I personally think of America. I love my country and was proud to serve in its Air Force during Vietnam. Do I agree with every thing it has ever done? No I do not.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Pa Pa:What do I personally think of America. I love my country and was proud to serve in its Air Force during Vietnam. Do I agree with every thing it has ever done? No I do not.As of late I am hard pressed to find you same something nice about her.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 you took offense at the suggestion or inference that US military actions are not always pure. Smedly Butler is a Medal of Honor Recipient, I provided his first hand account of his concern as a foot soldier that he was just a pawn for the Military Industrial complex, and as I stated who is pulling the string has been a concern of the foot soldier for a very long time.Sounds to me like his comments were to ease his guilt over not being the man he should have been.
Recommended Posts