inquiringmind Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 What is the great abominable church, and in what sense was it founded by the devil?Does latter day scripture tell us if the devil was directly active in formulating the doctrines of this church?Does it tell us how he did this?Does it tell us where this church is?
ELF1024 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 What is the great abominable church, and in what sense was it founded by the devil?Does latter day scripture tell us if the devil was directly active in formulating the doctrines of this church?Does it tell us how he did this?Does it tell us where this church is?In a very basic and simple sense, the Great and Abominable Church is any church that is not the one lead by the Lamb of God.However, I'm sure there are far more satisifying and less offensive answers that require all kinds of mental gymnastics.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Bit of a Loaded Question but I will wade into this cesspool!What is the great abominable church, and in what sense was it founded by the devil?The great and abominable church is all the uninspired man made doctrines of Christianity and all the uninspired man made religions of the world. To simplify everything except for the One True Church of Jesus Christ in some way is part of this abominable church, since all Churches that are not Christ's One True Church follow uninspired man made doctrine or uninspired man made religions. The sense in which the devil founded this church is in the sense that everything that doesn't come from God is from the devil. Satan also make pornography, vulgar music, vulgar movies, vulgar jokes, ect these things are not good and all things good are of God and all things evil are of the Devil (See Mormon 7:24)Does latter day scripture tell us if the devil was directly active in formulating the doctrines of this church? Does it tell us how he did this?Does it tell us where this church is?http://lds.org/scrip...&testament=bofm Above is the link to all the reference's to the Great and Abominable Church in LDS scriptures, I invite you to study these verses and find the answers for yourself!
Rivers Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 In a very basic and simple sense, the Great and Abominable Church is any church that is not the one lead by the Lamb of God.However, I'm sure there are far more satisifying and less offensive answers that require all kinds of mental gymnastics.When I read the description of the Great and Abominable church in the Book of Mormon, it definitely seems like it is talking about the Catholic Church. All though not the Catholic church today but the catholic church of the dark ages: When the church had political as as well religious authority over the people. When the church taught all those horrible things such as indulgences and supererogation. When the church kept the people from reading the scriptures and executed people for trying to make them available. The catholic church has changed for the better since the enlightenment IMHO. I would not consider the Catholic church great and abominable today. It seems to do more good than bad these days.I would consider the Great and Abominable church to be any organization that uses religion for the purpose of controlling people or to get gain. The Great and Abominable church is Satan's counterfeit for God's church.
CV75 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 What is the great abominable church, and in what sense was it founded by the devil?Does latter day scripture tell us if the devil was directly active in formulating the doctrines of this church?Does it tell us how he did this?Does it tell us where this church is?Here's a good article: http://lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=engThere are probably more updated explanations in the Institute manuals.My understanding is, depending on its use, the term refers to a) the church of the devil; b) any man-made church; or, c) a small group that intentionally removed some of the plain and precious things out of the scriptures, or otherwise confounded the correct meaning.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 After many years of mistakenly believing it was the Catholic church, I have since changed my stance... I believe that the abominable church is all the forces that will gather against Christ-Followers in the last days, and that the head of that conglomerate of evil is Islam. I believe the anti-Christ will be the 12th Imam, which is why he will be able to deceive so many, as his coming will be (satanically) miraculous.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 After many years of mistakenly believing it was the Catholic church, I have since changed my stance... When I first read the BoM, I felt the same feeling (as well did my wife who was Catholic before she became Mormon) but with further study and pondering the Restored Gospel I too have changed my opinion to what you currently believe!
Nathair/|\ Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Stephen E. Robinson has an interesting take on the subject.http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=7&num=1&id=168The historical abominable church of the devil is that apostate church that replaced true Christianity in the first and second centuries, teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. It dethroned God in the church and replaced him with man by denying the principle of revelation and turning instead to human intellect. As the product of human agency, its creeds were an abomination to the Lord, for they were idolatry: men worshipping the creations, not of their own hands, but of their own minds.Babylon in the first and second centuries may even have been a collection of different movements. Some Jewish Christians couldn't let go of the law of Moses and eventually gave up Christ instead. The Orthodox Christians adopted Greek philosophy. The Gnostics wallowed in the mysteries and in unspeakable practices on the one hand or in neurotic asceticism on the other. Second-century compilers like Tatian and Marcion rewrote the scriptures, the latter boldly chopping out anything, he didn't like. And all of them together forced the virtuous woman, the true church of Jesus Christ, into the wilderness.
Mark Beesley Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 The key to understanding Nephi's vision about the last days and the great and abominable Church may be in understanding the words of the angel, who said:9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.10And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.2 Nephi 14Obviously, there are more than two churches in the world, so unless we are willing to consign all non-LDS people to membership in the Church of the Devil, we need to be able to adopt a more liberal understanding of what it means to be a member of a "church." I don't know what word Nephi used when he recorded his vision, but I am reasonably certain it was not Greek, the language which provides the root for our English word church.I have known many non-LDS who are good people. Some are not even "Christian." But they live by decidedly Christian principles. Indeed, most major religions of the world have an ideal that is identical or similar to the Golden Rule. Are we ready to say that such people, just because they are not LDS belong to the Church of the Devil?It may be more useful to understand membership in one of the two churches as an exercise in looking at the individual's personal walk in life. Does a person think of others, promote peace, nurture the sick and afflicted, avoid extravagant consumerism, etc. In other words, without looking at the particular creeds of person, look at the life of the person. If the person, irrespective of what he or she believes, lives according to the Golden Rule, then I would say that person is to be included within the community of like-minded persons, i.e Church of the Lamb of God.On the other hand, if a person is basically selfish, looks out for number one, exploits and/or oppresses the powerless, makes no effort to control carnal appetites, then that person, even if he or she professes a belief in Jesus Christ, is likely one whom Nephi's angel would have viewed as belonging to the Church of the Devil. There are likely LDS in both camps, just as there are likely Muslim, Jews, Catholics, and Buddhists in both camps.But I could be mistaken.
ELF1024 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 After many years of mistakenly believing it was the Catholic church, I have since changed my stance... I believe that the abominable church is all the forces that will gather against Christ-Followers in the last days, and that the head of that conglomerate of evil is Islam. I believe the anti-Christ will be the 12th Imam, which is why he will be able to deceive so many, as his coming will be (satanically) miraculous.I think there is a good arguement that can be made for Islam to be at least one sect of the G&A Church. I also think that there is a good arguement for those that deny there is a God to be another sect of the G&A Church.In my opinion, any church that denies the divinity of Christ is on the short list for being a part of the G&A.
alfonsobonetti Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 The Great Abominable Church is not the Catholic Church and never was, even though some have incorrectly believed such.The Church itself has made clear that this is not the case by for example disciplining Orson Pratt and having McConkie remove the idea from his "Mormon Doctrine".Further, there is another doctrine which makes clear this case, and that is the D&C scripture which states to "Contend against NO CHURCH, save the Church of the Devil". Clearly, the Church of the Devil idea is not referring to any particular Church but the devils influence in ALL things, be it religion or otherwise. The Church of the devil could even sometimes exist within Mormonism if we aren't watchful. Case in point, certain kinds of Music that sometimes enter Church/School sponsored dances.
alfonsobonetti Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 The Great Abominable Church is not the Catholic Church and never was, even though some have incorrectly believed such, including various Protestants.The Church itself has made clear that this is not the case by for example disciplining Orson Pratt and having McConkie remove the idea from his "Mormon Doctrine".Further, there is another doctrine which makes clear this case, and that is the D&C scripture which states to "Contend against NO CHURCH, save the Church of the Devil". Clearly, the Church of the Devil idea is not referring to any particular Church but the devils influence in ALL things, be it religion or otherwise. The Church of the devil could even sometimes exist within Mormonism if we aren't watchful. Case in point, certain kinds of Music that sometimes enter Church/School sponsored dances.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 I think there is a good arguement that can be made for Islam to be at least one sect of the G&A Church. I also think that there is a good arguement for those that deny there is a God to be another sect of the G&A Church.In my opinion, any church that denies the divinity of Christ is on the short list for being a part of the G&A.If you read my post carefully you will discover that I believe that all those who are opposed to Christ and those who follow Him (of all sects) are part of that church. I simply believe that Islam is the main face or driving force of that movement. Secular Winguts and Libtards, who reject Christianity, but for some bizarre reason love Islam, and have no issue with Sharia Law, will join with them when the lines are drawn because they will be deceived by the 12th Imam/Anti-Christ.
ELF1024 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 If you read my post carefully you will discover that I believe that all those who are opposed to Christ and those who follow Him (of all sects) are part of that church. I simply believe that Islam is the main face or driving force of that movement. Secular Winguts and Libtards, who reject Christianity, but for some bizarre reason love Islam, and have no issue with Sharia Law, will join with them when the lines are drawn because they will be deceived by the 12th Imam/Anti-Christ.Of course it's those same Secular Wingnuts and Libtards that will be the first to be killed by their Islamic overlords. Irony anyone?
Walden Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 If you read my post carefully you will discover that I believe that all those who are opposed to Christ and those who follow Him (of all sects) are part of that church. I simply believe that Islam is the main face or driving force of that movement. Secular Winguts and Libtards, who reject Christianity, but for some bizarre reason love Islam, and have no issue with Sharia Law, will join with them when the lines are drawn because they will be deceived by the 12th Imam/Anti-Christ."Secular Winguts and Libtards"....way to keep it classy BookofMormonLuvr!
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 "Secular Winguts and Libtards"....way to keep it classy BookofMormonLuvr!That's how I roll.I am not bound by secular society's views of political correctness, and I don't really care what those brainwashed by our Liberal school system think.IOW, I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.
Mark Beesley Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 "Secular Winguts and Libtards"....way to keep it classy BookofMormonLuvr!Those types of derisive references to others would seem to indicate a leaning towards membership in the Church of the Devil and not the Church of the Lamb of God. Hopefully BookofMormonLuvr's personal walk in life is more charitable than his/her language.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Of course it's those same Secular Wingnuts and Libtards that will be the first to be killed by their Islamic overlords. Irony anyone?Not if they submit, which they will do, ultimately. He who has no faith will do anything to save his skin.
ELF1024 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Those types of derisive references to others would seem to indicate a leaning towards membership in the Church of the Devil and not the Church of the Lamb of God. Hopefully BookofMormonLuvr's personal walk in life is more charitable than his/her language.Luckily there is freedom of speech on the Internet, and Book is welcome to share his view, something that would not be so under Sharia law. If the lack of political correctness offends you, perhaps you should look within yourself to find the reason for such.
ELF1024 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Not if they submit, which they will do, ultimately. He who has no faith will do anything to save his skin.I am not so sure that is the case, the amount of trouble that they cause now, would be enough to get them thrown off a tall building in Iran.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 I am not so sure that is the case, the amount of trouble that they cause now, would be enough to get them thrown off a tall building in Iran.I believe it is only because the freedoms afforded them in this land that they comport themselves in such a manner. Under the thumb of complete totalitarianism they will fold like a $1 table.
Walden Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 That's how I roll.I am not bound by secular society's views of political correctness, and I don't really care what those brainwashed by our Liberal school system think.IOW, I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.With ambassadors like this, It's no wonder that religion is losing influence throughout the world.And the hilarity of a religionist who believes in some magic man in the sky calling out a secularist as being "brainwashed" is just too much. You're a riot BookofMormonLuvr.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 With ambassadors like this, It's no wonder that religion is losing influence throughout the world.And the hilarity of a religionist who believes in some magic man in the sky calling out a secularist as being "brainwashed" is just too much. You're a riot BookofMormonLuvr.I aim to please.
Mark Beesley Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Luckily there is freedom of speech on the Internet, and Book is welcome to share his view, something that would not be so under Sharia law. If the lack of political correctness offends you, perhaps you should look within yourself to find the reason for such.I neither bemoaned BookofMormonLuvr's exercise of his/her freedom to speak his/her mind, nor did it offend me. I simply pointed out, within the parameters of the topic of discussion that such language is contentious, and thus worthy of attribution to a member of the Church of the Devil. I then appropriately harbored the hope that his/her walk in life was not a mirror of the language used.If it offended you that I did so, perhaps you should borrow the mirror I provided to LDSGuy 1986 yesterday.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Did Christ's calling out of the Pharisee's as a "brood of vipers" who's "father is the devil", qualify Him a a candidate for the G&A Church?******footing around everything doesn't solve much of anything, Mark.
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