BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 satan & his angels know the mechanics of the universe also.
Olavarria Posted March 18, 2011 Author Posted March 18, 2011 I just posted this as a case study of religious apologetics in action.Do you think his arguments are convincing?
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 I just posted this as a case study of religious apologetics in action.Do you think his arguments are convincing?Perhaps, in arguing that it is an inspired work. But that that is was inspired by God- not so much...Moroni 10:66 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
zerinus Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 He is about as smart as any "Evangelical preacher" today!
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Perhaps, in arguing that it is an inspired work. But that that is was inspired by God- not so much...I agree with you again BookofMormonLuvr! This is becoming, a surprising turn of events! The problem with the Quran and Isalm, is that it denies that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is not the Christ. We are told in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, that whatever denies that Jesus is the Christ is not of God. Another verse from the scriptures that stands against the Quran is Galatians 1:8. I have read most of the Quran and hope one day to be motivated enough to sit down and finish it!So I understand the message of the Quran for the most part and it is a fine message, but it is not inspired of God, IMO.
Olavarria Posted March 18, 2011 Author Posted March 18, 2011 Methodology is everything. The speaker 1)knows modern science and 2)knows the Quran. So it maybe that he is just interpreting Quranic verses as if they are saying modern science.Here is a better methodology: 1)Take what the scripture says2)take what medieval commentators said the scripture meant. Why? Because the ancient and medival scholars know the scripture but they don't know modern science. They provide a control. This is the method Orthodox Jewish Astrophysicist uses in his "Genesis and The Big Bang". He limits himself to ancient and Medieval commentators like Rashi and Nachmanides and then compares what they say to modern science.I don't doubt that the Koran has some divine authenticity. God is bigger than our Church. But I would say the same thing about the Buddhist scriptures or whatever. I think the OP is a case study in the weakness of the parallel method.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 I don't doubt that the Koran has some divine authenticity.I agree, it has some divine authenticity, just like the Golden Rule does. Both are works of men that take elements that are inspired by Heavenly Father. I feel similar to the Eastern religions that they had sparks of divine inspiration, but saw it through the lenses of there ancient cultures. All truth and good is from God so we know that the peaceful teachings of many Eastern religions are good in there fundamental values, just incorrect in there interpretation of spiritual matters. In the end, if you are honestly doing the best you can to live a good life and simply are misinformed about who the supreme creator is Christ will have compassion and mercy, and allow you time to learn and understand his gospel. Like I have said before a devout Hindu is better off than an unrepentant Mormon at the day of judgement.
Olavarria Posted March 18, 2011 Author Posted March 18, 2011 Any thoughts on how his method and assumptions are similiar/different from that of Mormon scholars and how they deal with Mormon texts?
Olavarria Posted March 18, 2011 Author Posted March 18, 2011 I agree, it has some divine authenticity, just like the Golden Rule does. Both are works of men that take elements that are inspired by Heavenly Father. I feel similar to the Eastern religions that they had sparks of divine inspiration, but saw it through the lenses of there ancient cultures. All truth and good is from God so we know that the peaceful teachings of many Eastern religions are good in there fundamental values, just incorrect in there interpretation of spiritual matters. In the end, if you are honestly doing the best you can to live a good life and simply are misinformed about who the supreme creator is Christ will have compassion and mercy, and allow you time to learn and understand his gospel. Like I have said before a devout Hindu is better off than an unrepentant Mormon at the day of judgement.Agreed, my whole point is that the apologetic method of looking for parallels is weak.
The Nehor Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Well, the sad thing about this is that educated men did know that the Earth was round before the Quran was written. It was established in the third century B.C. by the Greeks.The Greeks also believed that the light of the moon was reflected light back to earth from the sun. Aristotle discussed this when talking about lunar eclipses.As for the big bang, the Quran doesn't really say anything more accurately then the Genesis story or any number of pagan myths about order coming forth from chaos (Rahab, Tiamat, and other chaos-type demons).So the premises of the guy's statements are utterly wrong. These things were known by Christianity from which Islam formed. Claiming that these make the Quran miraculous is ridiculous.
Luigi Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 I agree with you again BookofMormonLuvr! This is becoming, a surprising turn of events! The problem with the Quran and Isalm, is that it denies that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is not the Christ. We are told in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, that whatever denies that Jesus is the Christ is not of God. Glad we cleared that up. We an dismiss whatever this guy said about the Quran. The Quran can't be true because the Book of Mormon and Bible tell us so.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Glad we cleared that up. We an dismiss whatever this guy said about the Quran. The Quran can't be true because the Book of Mormon and Bible tell us so.Pretty much. You deny Christ, you are not from God- end of story.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Glad we cleared that up. We an dismiss whatever this guy said about the Quran. The Quran can't be true because the Book of Mormon and Bible tell us so.Yes, as Mormon's this is very important that something, outside of our Living Prophet, teaching us something should comply with the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ if we are to follow it in our lives. No to a Baptist, they follow the Bible but not the Book of Mormon, so this statement is half true to them, they would say "The Quran and the Book of Mormon can't be true because the Bible says so (I think they are wrong but that is another topic)"For a Jew, this statement makes no sense at all cause they think the the Quran, Bible , and Book of Mormon are all wrong and the Talmud is correct. For an Atheist we are all a bunch of jokers because all of our books are wrong. So given the fact that BoMLuvr and I are Mormons, the statement isn't odd at all. To you though the statement seems odd, but unless you have some evidence or point to add to the discussion your comment really served no purpose at all.
Walden Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Pretty much. You deny Christ, you are not from God- end of story.And according to the qur'an, if you deny allah, this is your fate:"The throes of death come revealing the truth. That is what you were trying to evade! The Trumpet will be blown. That is the Day of the Threat. Every self will come together with a driver and a witness: "You were heedless of this so We have stripped you of your covering and today your sight is sharp". His inseparable comrade will say, "This is what I have ready for you". Hurl into Hell every obdurate disbeliever, impeder of good, doubt-causing aggressor, who set up another god together with Allah. Hurl him into the terrible punishment." (Surah Qaf: 19-26)According to Islam, those who deny allah suffer an eternity of punishment.According to christianity, those who deny christ suffer a similar fate.And your text is correct because you believe it? Why, because you believe it more than the other guy believes his?....this makes no sense
Olavarria Posted March 18, 2011 Author Posted March 18, 2011 Well, the sad thing about this is that educated men did know that the Earth was round before the Quran was written. It was established in the third century B.C. by the Greeks.The Greeks also believed that the light of the moon was reflected light back to earth from the sun. Aristotle discussed this when talking about lunar eclipses.As for the big bang, the Quran doesn't really say anything more accurately then the Genesis story or any number of pagan myths about order coming forth from chaos (Rahab, Tiamat, and other chaos-type demons).So the premises of the guy's statements are utterly wrong. These things were known by Christianity from which Islam formed. Claiming that these make the Quran miraculous is ridiculous.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 What is that book reported to have been written by Abraham to whom all most religions look to as their Patriarch that mentions these things and the order of the universe. Oh yes the BoA
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 And your text is correct because you believe it? Why, because you believe it more than the other guy believes his?....this makes no senseNo, because our "text" is translated by the will of God through his prophet Joseph Smith Jr, to restore the fullness of the Gospel that was lost during the Great Apostasy.So the Bible and Quran (books compiles and/or written during the Great Apostasy) are the ininspired works of men. The Bible is not complete, there is many missing testaments, some that we know were left out intentionally while the Bible was being complied in the 4th century AD. The Quran is the plain work of a man, there is no inspiration in it (besides what is taken from the OT) and the book denies that Christ is the son of god, which fails the good fruit test of Matthew.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 And according to the qur'an, if you deny allah, this is your fate:"The throes of death come revealing the truth. That is what you were trying to evade! The Trumpet will be blown. That is the Day of the Threat. Every self will come together with a driver and a witness: "You were heedless of this so We have stripped you of your covering and today your sight is sharp". His inseparable comrade will say, "This is what I have ready for you". Hurl into Hell every obdurate disbeliever, impeder of good, doubt-causing aggressor, who set up another god together with Allah. Hurl him into the terrible punishment." (Surah Qaf: 19-26)According to Islam, those who deny allah suffer an eternity of punishment.According to christianity, those who deny christ suffer a similar fate.And your text is correct because you believe it? Why, because you believe it more than the other guy believes his?....this makes no senseI could not care less what the Koran says.You are apparently unacquainted with my beliefs if you believe that I believe that.My "text" is correct because it is, not because I believe it is.
Walden Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 I could not care less what the Koran says.You are apparently unacquainted with my beliefs if you believe that I believe that.My "text" is correct because it is, not because I believe it is.And muslims, buddhists, jews, etc. could not care less what the Book of Mormon says....they believe that their text is correct just "because it is", which seems fine enough an argument for your viewpoint....why not others? Of course I am acquainted with your beliefs, I am just having a difficult time figuring out the rationale when you reply with a statement that your "text" is correct just because it is. How would you refute a muslim, jew, buddhist, etc. who states the exact same thing about their text? By your logic, there are infinite things that one could say are true, just "because it is," without having once to consider whether or not it is rational to think such.It's like me saying that the Book of Mormon is false, "because it is, not because I believe it is."
Walden Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 No, because our "text" is translated by the will of God through his prophet Joseph Smith Jr, to restore the fullness of the Gospel that was lost during the Great Apostasy.So the Bible and Quran (books compiles and/or written during the Great Apostasy) are the ininspired works of men. The Bible is not complete, there is many missing testaments, some that we know were left out intentionally while the Bible was being complied in the 4th century AD. The Quran is the plain work of a man, there is no inspiration in it (besides what is taken from the OT) and the book denies that Christ is the son of god, which fails the good fruit test of Matthew.I can guarantee you that a muslim, jew, etc. will testify that their "texts" are indeed inspired by god, allah, etc. and that the Book of Mormon is the work of man. I am also sure that there are several million muslims who might vigorously argue that the quran contains "ni inspiration in it." They couldn't care less whether their texts fail the "good fruit test of Matthew,".....that's like saying the Book of Mormon fails the test of some holy muslim cleric.....big deal. The lack of logic in these posts is frightening.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 <br>And muslims, buddhists, jews, etc. could not care less what the Book of Mormon says....they believe that their text is correct just "because it is", which seems fine enough an argument for your viewpoint....why not others? <br><br>Of course I am acquainted with your beliefs, I am just having a difficult time figuring out the rationale when you reply with a statement that your "text" is correct just because it is. How would you refute a muslim, jew, buddhist, etc. who states the exact same thing about their text? By your logic, there are infinite things that one could say are true, just "because it is," without having once to consider whether or not it is rational to think such.<br><br>It's like me saying that the Book of Mormon is false, "because it <u>is</u>, not because I believe it is."<br>How do I refute their views? I ask them to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God, with real intent, to find out if it is true. If they do that, with real intent, they will know and with that knowledge they will know that their Christ-denying texts are spiritual <<searching for a diplomatically correct word to use here>>... Good, perhaps, for understanding the mindset of the people that believe in them- but not good for spiritual growth and development.
Walden Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 How do I refute their views? I ask them to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God, with real intent, to find out if it is true. If they do that, with real intent, they will know and with that knowledge they will know that their Christ-denying texts are spiritual <<searching for a diplomatically correct word to use here>>... Good, perhaps, for understanding the mindset of the people that believe in them- but not good for spiritual growth and development.Do you realize that there are people who have done this for which they did not receive a confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true? Is your rebuttal that they must not have done so "with real intent." I can recount to you any number of stories of people who struggled for years to receive confirmation that the BoM is true, following the guidlelines set forth in the scriptures to pray and ask with real intent, only to receive nothing.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 Do you realize that there are people who have done this for which they did not receive a confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true? Is your rebuttal that they must not have done so "with real intent." I can recount to you any number of stories of people who struggled for years to receive confirmation that the BoM is true, following the guidlelines set forth in the scriptures to pray and ask with real intent, only to receive nothing.I can't comment on those people. I have no access to their histories or personal thoughts or feelings. Only God know what was going on with them, that they didn't receive the correct answer.
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