LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I'm sorry. I'm not seeing it. Can you cut-and-paste the section from the Wikipedia article where there is a statement by any member of the disciplinary council which excommunicated Wthitmer that says their action against him was taken because he disagreed with Joseph Smith?Well if you want the minuets from the confidential disciplinary council you can find them yourself (and good luck with that), the article goes through how and why he was excommunicated.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Merely being ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood is presumably a lower ordinance than being sealed up to eternal life. Wow, I have a question what is the requirement to be able to have a temple marriage?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 To me the scriptures paint a little bit of a different picture in regards to rejecting G-d's messengers.CFR
Doctor Steuss Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Wow, I have a question what is the requirement to be able to have a temple marriage?You have to be the cutest single guy in your quorum.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 You have to be the cutest single guy in your quorum.Darn, well my wife and I are going to be ministering angels then I guess, no exaltation for us then!
Mark Beesley Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Well if you want the minuets from the confidential disciplinary council you can find them yourself (and good luck with that), the article goes through how and why he was excommunicated.So, in other words, you have NO first hand account from anyone on the councll stating the reason Whitmer was excommunicated. And yet, you remain comfortable asserting that he was excommunicated for simply disagreeing with Joseph Smith. Is that right?I think I'm with Elf1024 on this. Discussion with you is pointless at this time. You joined this Board about a month ago. You already have nearly 1000 posts. (In contrast, I have been on the Board for over 5 years and have about 2700 posts.) You post in dozens of threads, spreading yourself so thin that it is really impossible for you to carefully consider what you are writing, let alone that which others write. You might consider slowing down and limiting yourself to a couple of threads. Supplement your participation on the Board with at least an equal amount of time reading scholarly publications on Church history and doctrine.Good luck. Hope to see you in the Temple soon.
Doctor Steuss Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Darn, well my wife and I are going to be ministering angels then I guess, no exaltation for us then!I'm just hoping I get into the High Priest's Quorum while I'm still somewhat young (seems the competition is a little less rough there than it is in Elder's Q).
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 1. Do you still maintain that a priesthood holder breaking the Priesthood Covenant is a worse sin, more serious in the eyes of God, than the murder of innocents? If the murder isn't a member of the Church, than yes. 2. Do you still maintain that ultimately failing to honor your covenants qualifies you for outer darkness, a fate worse than the vilest murderer gets?Yes, it can definitely qualify you for outer darkness as per D&C 84:413. Do you sill maintain that neglecting your home teaching, or otherwise failing to magnify your priesthood in some minor way, counts as breaking your priesthood covenant, thus qualifying you for an eternity in outer darkness, whilst Jeff Dahmer and Adolf Hitler enjoy a comparatively leisurely stint in the Telestial Kingdom?I never said that failing to magnify your priesthood is breaking the covenant, I said my Stake President counciled me that something as simple as not magnifying your calling can be breaking the oath and covenant of the priesthood. I think both him and I would agree that only Christ can determine what is or isn't breaking the Covenant, he was simply saying that could be considered simply failure to magnify your calling. If I didn't make this clear earlier to you I apologize deeply for the confusion I caused.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I'm just hoping I get into the High Priest's Quorum while I'm still somewhat young (seems the competition is a little less rough there than it is in Elder's Q).Yeah, I need to get called into the Bishopric so I can be a High Priest and win be default since I think there is no on in HP under 45-50. Win by default! LOL
consiglieri Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Thanks, I was being kind of lazy.WalkerW has been known to be so lazy as to not even empty his message inbox.But that looks like a very interesting article, and thanks for the link, WalkerW!This won't print off as easily.From what I can see, though, it looks like Buerger has some points I taught to my Gospel Doctrine class a couple of years back regarding the fulness of the priesthood which tend to make clear some otherwise obscure D&C passages.All the Best!--Consiglieri
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 So, in other words, you have NO first hand account from anyone on the councll stating the reason Whitmer was excommunicated. And yet, you remain comfortable asserting that he was excommunicated for simply disagreeing with Joseph Smith. Is that right?I go by everything I have found so far, if you have more information then why a hog, please share it, so we can become as smart as you feel you are! Discussion with you is pointless at this time. Mark I love you brother but I have yet to see you discuss a single thing in this thread. From what I have seen on the thread, you are way to competitive, aggressive, and controlling to actually have a discussion, you are looking for a war of words in a forum for polite and friendly discussion. Someday if I am every on the West Coast for an extended period of time, I will have to look you up so we can have your war of words in person after deep study and long preparation. As I have said repeatedly though and you continue to forget, this is not a debating forum but a dialogue and discussion forum, debating is strictly prohibited. We are here to bounce ideas off each other and discuss not getting into a debate. Your further comments not quoted in this comment, only go to further support my above claims.
consiglieri Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 You can go on forever about history, what Joseph though, what Brigham thought, what Hinkley thought, but I follow the living prophet my chosen stake and ward leaders and most importantly the Scriptures. As President Benson taught us a living prophet is more important than a dead prophet.Since President Benson is now deceased, do we need to accept that teaching anymore?
Mark Beesley Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I never said that failing to magnify your priesthood is breaking the covenant, I said my Stake President counciled me that something as simple as not magnifying your calling can be breaking the oath and covenant of the priesthood. I think both him and I would agree that only Christ can determine what is or isn't breaking the Covenant, he was simply saying that could be considered simply failure to magnify your calling. If I didn't make this clear earlier to you I apologize deeply for the confusion I caused.Here is what you posted earlier:According to my leadership and this is a direct quote "Simply not magnifying your calling is breaking the oath and covenant of the priesthood"So, is it "can be breaking," or "is breaking"?
SilverKnight Posted March 17, 2011 Author Posted March 17, 2011 I never said that failing to magnify your priesthood is breaking the covenant, I said my Stake President counciled me that something as simple as not magnifying your calling can be breaking the oath and covenant of the priesthood. I think both him and I would agree that only Christ can determine what is or isn't breaking the Covenant, he was simply saying that could be considered simply failure to magnify your calling. If I didn't make this clear earlier to you I apologize deeply for the confusion I caused.Okay thanks LDS Guy, one more question:Did your stake president specifically teach or tell you that breaking the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood is a worse sin than murder, and/or qualifies you for outer darkness?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Since President Benson is now deceased, do we need to accept that teaching anymore?Since they are not refuted by the living prophet, and still referenced by the Church, I say yes. Accepting the living prophet over dead prophet's doesn't mean that when I prophet dies his council is no longer important. What it means is that if a dead prophet taught us one thing (for example Brigham Young taught us that black's were banned from holding the priesthood) and a more modern prophet says other wise (like every prophet since President Spencer Kimball that has taught us that all worthy men are to be ordained to the priesthood) that we take the teachings of the living prophet over the dead prophet since that is more modern revelation. If there is no change to a dead prophet's teachings then his teachings and policies are still important to us. It was President Hinkley that set policy that the Church would start building smaller temples in rapid succession around the world in the late 1990's, just because he passed away in 2008 doesn't mean that this policy ended in 2008, it only ends if the living prophet makes changes to it or get's rid of the policy.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Okay thanks LDS Guy, one more question:Did your stake president specifically teach or tell you that breaking the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood is a worse sin than murder, and/or qualifies you for outer darkness?How do you define teach?Did he tell me the exact words, "breaking the covenant is worst than murder and qualifies you for outer darkness"? Of course not, why would he, what he told me and explained to me in detail is that breaking of the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood cannot be forgiven in this life or the next, just as my Bishop counciled me, just like my Elder's Quorum president counciled me, and just like the scriptures council me in D&C 84:41. Now, once again I would like to state that only Christ determines who is qualified from a kingdom of glory or Outer Darkness, all the scriptures say it there is no forgiveness in this life of the next. Which to my interpretation means Outer Darkness, for all I know the Stake President, Bishop, and Elder's Quorum President could think that this means he get Telestial Glory or Terrestial Glory. I can't speak for there interpretation of the Scriptures only my own.
Mark Beesley Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 I go by everything I have found so far, if you have more information then why a hog, please share it, so we can become as smart as you feel you are!It comes with age. You'll get there someday. Mark I love you brother but I have yet to see you discuss a single thing in this thread. From what I have seen on the thread, you are way to competitive, aggressive, and controlling to actually have a discussion, you are looking for a war of words in a forum for polite and friendly discussion.Moi???? Here, use this:Someday if I am every on the West Coast for an extended period of time, I will have to look you up so we can have your war of words in person after deep study and long preparation.Please don't.As I have said repeatedly though and you continue to forget, this is not a debating forum but a dialogue and discussion forum, debating is strictly prohibited. We are here to bounce ideas off each other and discuss not getting into a debate. If you don't like the way I discuss things, take it to a moderator. Furthermore, I find it difficult to discuss when the references I am given are things like "common knowledge" and "everything I've found so far . . ."
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 It comes with age. You'll get there someday. Moi???? Here, use this:Please don't.If you don't like the way I discuss things, take it to a moderator. Furthermore, I find it difficult to discuss when the references I am given are things like "common knowledge" and "everything I've found so far . . ."This is why I have come to admire and love you brother! You never disappoint, your are always predictably the same! God Bless!
SilverKnight Posted March 17, 2011 Author Posted March 17, 2011 What he told me and explained to me in detail is that breaking of the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood cannot be forgiven in this life or the next, just as my Bishop counciled me, just like my Elder's Quorum president counciled me, Can you give me the name of your bishop or stake president, and the name of your ward or stake?(PM me if you like)I assure you this is not any attempt to compromise your privacy, but if there is a Stake President or Bishop teaching this extreme and disturbing interpretation of LDS doctrines to prospective elders, something needs to be done about it.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Here is what you posted earlier:So, is it "can be breaking," or "is breaking"?If you read the post you get the answer! Guess what I make mistakes at times!
Skylla Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 LDS Guy: Your statements need to be backed up with references.Skylla
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Can you give me the name of your bishop or stake president, and the name of your ward or stake?(PM me if you like)I assure you this is not any attempt to compromise your privacy, but if there is a Stake President or Bishop teaching this extreme and disturbing interpretation of LDS doctrines to prospective elders, something needs to be done about it.Well, seeing that he isn't teaching what you asked:Did your stake president specifically teach or tell you that breaking the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood is a worse sin than murder, and/or qualifies you for outer darkness?As I said he taught D&C 84:41, this isn't an extreme teaching, nor did he say anything about murder (which for a member is also an unforgivable sin) or outer darkness, as I have said repeatedly. So your making a mountain out of mole hill, and no I will not be part of such mockery of a fine man of God, because you disagree with the scripture regarding the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood .
mercyngrace Posted March 17, 2011 Posted March 17, 2011 Well, seeing that he isn't teaching what you asked:As I said he taught D&C 84:41, this isn't an extreme teaching, nor did he say anything about murder (which for a member is also an unforgivable sin) or outer darkness, as I have said repeatedly. So your making a mountain out of mole hill, and no I will not be part of such mockery of a fine man of God, because you disagree with the scripture regarding the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood .Is it Pres. Harding over there still?
SilverKnight Posted March 17, 2011 Author Posted March 17, 2011 So your making a mountain out of mole hill, and no I will not be part of such mockery of a fine man of God, because you disagree with the scripture regarding the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood.Did your Stake President or Bishop teach you, or any other prospective elder/aaronic priesthood holder, that not honoring the Oath & Covenant of the Priesthood was an unforgiveable sin?
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