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Proxy Work


Lareliw

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There was an interesting topic that was locked below regarding priesthood functions if no priesthood member was present. Which got me to thinking about the proxy work done by the Church, such as baptism for the dead as an example. I have to admit I don't *really* understand it, but what would happen should you die and you do not have someone to proxy for you? Same with sealing of children, etc. If this is not done and you pass on, can this be done by proxy and if it can, but there is no one to complete it for you, what happens then? Oh and out of curiosity where in scripture are these various proxies mentioned? I also was wondering, as I heard someone somewhere state, I can't even remember where, that LDS put more faith and trust into Joseph Smith's words than in the Bible. Where does the Bible stand as far as your scriptures are concerned?

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"Proxy" work is all over the Bible, Lareliw. It starts in Eden. G-d tells Adam & Eve not to heat the fruit, warning them they'll die if they do. Of course they do, but they don't die. Why not? Look at the coats of skins that G-d prepares for them to wear. How did G-d get those skins, if not from animals killed and skinned for the benefit of the man and the woman.

Those animals bore their transgression, and their hides covered their shame. A proxy was found by G-d and substituted in order to save mankind from the decreed consequence of their willful act in violation of G-d's decree.

Next we see Abraham finding a ram to sacrifice in Isaac's place.

The law of sacrifice is all about proxies.

The concept is clear and it's always been a part of things.

That we as Mormons act as proxies for others in the Temples should not be so very surprising. The details are not as interesting as the concept: we emulate the Master, Who was the great Proxy for us all, when we offer ourselves as proxies for others. We thereby become "Saviors on Mount Zion," another very Biblical concept. We aren't and cannot be anything as grand as the Master. Our poor gifts given to others and to Him are pitiable things, really. But give them we must.

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Be sure not to "heat" that fruit!, especially in a microwave, it may explode.:P

Mormons put more faith and reliance on latter-day scripture than on the Bible. Current revelation trumps anything said in the past. Of course, whenever there are discrepancies the old argument over revelation and mere men speaking is raised, again and again. There are many in the Church who believe that the controversial subjects taught by Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, et al. the early prophets of this "dispensation", were not revelation. For instance: all that was said by Young about Black Africans being the seed of Cain; Joseph Smith's "God is an exalted man" theology; polygamy; and any number of less sticky "doctrines", are examples of teachings not being inspired. And of course, anything that appears to be in direct conflict with the Bible is arguably either the fault of the Bible by being incomplete (corrupt because of the apostasy), or Mormon scripture being out of harmony with the world of God. Mormons will take all the "standard works" and cross reference a subject from all of them to arrive at the correct understanding. But don't expect that doctrine to agree with mainstream/orthodox Christianity....

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Be sure not to "heat" that fruit!, especially in a microwave, it may explode.:P

Mormons put more faith and reliance on latter-day scripture than on the Bible. Current revelation trumps anything said in the past. Of course, whenever there are discrepancies the old argument over revelation and mere men speaking is raised, again and again. There are many in the Church who believe that the controversial subjects taught by Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, et al. the early prophets of this "dispensation", were not revelation. For instance: all that was said by Young about Black Africans being the seed of Cain; Joseph Smith's "God is an exalted man" theology; polygamy; and any number of less sticky "doctrines", are examples of teachings not being inspired. And of course, anything that appears to be in direct conflict with the Bible is arguably either the fault of the Bible by being incomplete (corrupt because of the apostasy), or Mormon scripture being out of harmony with the world of God. Mormons will take all the "standard works" and cross reference a subject from all of them to arrive at the correct understanding. But don't expect that doctrine to agree with mainstream/orthodox Christianity....

I dont agree with this statment.

the Four stadard works and current revelation together work for our good, the bible is very inportant to our faith that is why it is placed first in the sstandard work listing.

Also the 4 standard works and the holy ghost will help us to know what is truth and what is opinon.

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There was an interesting topic that was locked below regarding priesthood functions if no priesthood member was present. Which got me to thinking about the proxy work done by the Church, such as baptism for the dead as an example. I have to admit I don't *really* understand it, but what would happen should you die and you do not have someone to proxy for you?

You will always have someone to proxy with you. Eventually, all the names will be released from Heaven after the second coming... all the names that we cannot get from genealogical data, I believe. Of course... that's alot of names... 1000 years of 24-hour-night-and-day temple work, approximately. So even if you die without someone knowing about you, your time will come, because God knows about you =).

Same with sealing of children, etc. If this is not done and you pass on, can this be done by proxy and if it can, but there is no one to complete it for you, what happens then?

Same thing. When the names are released, all will be done that we cannot do right now.

Oh and out of curiosity where in scripture are these various proxies mentioned? I also was wondering, as I heard someone somewhere state, I can't even remember where, that LDS put more faith and trust into Joseph Smith's words than in the Bible. Where does the Bible stand as far as your scriptures are concerned?

Baptism for the dead is mentioned once, and in an unclear fashion (it is unclear of the author's purpose in using the verse - whether he supported or disliked it). It is in 1 Cor 15:29.

Temple work in general, however, is mentioned much more explicitly. See Malachi 4:6, 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:19, Isaiah 56:5, John 5:25, Zechariah 9:11, Ezekiel 43:11, Obadiah 1:21.

Also, the Book of Mormon and of course, the D&C (it has the specific command of the Lord), help also... but those are just from the Bible. But to be honest, it doesn't really matter whether it is in the Bible or not; not all of God's commandments were written in the Bible =).

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I understand that the LDS theory of proxy baptism paves the way for all to meet the demand laid out in scripture. Every soul that was born is baptized either in person or by substitution.

How does it work tho for the other ordinances? For instance, sealing families together or celestial marriages. How does a person that excepts the gospel, and their proxy baptism, while they are in spirit prison, and then wishes to attain full benefit of celestial glory, get sealed to family and potential wives.....

Since all proxy baptisms are in essence speculative, is there also speculative spousal and familial sealings? Because many have speculated that those who die before they have had the opportunity to live... much, will be given the chance in the post world...To meet and woo a spouse. How can god work this out?

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I have done probably a thousand of baptisms for the dead. It really saddens me how much time I wasted doing something I thought was the truth. Of course now that I am a Christian and have studied the Bible, I know the real truth. Baptisms for the dead is a farse, created by Joseph Smith, the master of lies. Instead of spending money on the poor and homeless who could benifit from this expensive buildings, the DEAD who do not care are worshipped by the LDS. It is such a sad state. Shame on those who know better, or are just too ignorant.

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I understand that the LDS theory of proxy baptism paves the way for all to meet the demand laid out in scripture. Every soul that was born is baptized either in person or by substitution.

How does it work tho for the other ordinances? For instance, sealing families together or celestial marriages. How does a person that excepts the gospel, and their proxy baptism, while they are in spirit prison, and then wishes to attain full benefit of celestial glory, get sealed to family and potential wives.....

Since all proxy baptisms are in essence speculative, is there also speculative spousal and familial sealings? Because many have speculated that those who die before they have had the opportunity to live... much, will be given the chance in the post world...To meet and woo a spouse. How can god work this out?

As said... it'll be released after the second coming... then will much temple work be done =).

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As said... it'll be released after the second coming... then will much temple work be done =).

Any theories on how those who die before they have physical offspring have the ability to do that in the post realm?

I realize it is feasible that all this proxy work can be done by so few for so many, it just doesn't seem....to me anyway....a reasonable, or simplistic way to run an existence.

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I have done probably a thousand of baptisms for the dead. It really saddens me how much time I wasted doing something I thought was the truth. Of course now that I am a Christian and have studied the Bible, I know the real truth. Baptisms for the dead is a farse, created by Joseph Smith, the master of lies. Instead of spending money on the poor and homeless who could benifit from this expensive buildings, the DEAD who do not care are worshipped by the LDS. It is such a sad state. Shame on those who know better, or are just too ignorant.

Wait, Christian who has studied the Bible! Have you, in the Bible you have so thoroughly studied, seen this:

1Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

As I recall, this Christian practice noted in the Christian Bible predates Joseph Smith's birth by several centuries. How is it, then, that you attribute creation of baptisms for the dead to Joseph Smith?

Next, you call Joseph Smith, "the master of lies", but then you go on to claim that LDS worship the "DEAD", which as a former LDS you know is itself a lie. I refer you, as a Christian, to the Bible you have so thoroughly studied:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As for those who should know better or are in a state of ignorance, you should put yourself at the top of the list, especially when you claim to speak with authority as to what the dead do, or don't, care about.

Shame on you.

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the DEAD who do not care are worshipped by the LDS.

That is such a falsehood from the get-go, but I have one question. What does your "Christian faith" do with all those who have died without knowledge of Jesus Christ or without accepting him?

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That is such a falsehood from the get-go, but I have one question. What does your "Christian faith" do with all those who have died without knowledge of Jesus Christ or without accepting him?

"Our" Christian faith doesn't have to do "anything" since it's God who is just and knows all men's hearts, who makes a righteous judgement.

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"Our" Christian faith doesn't have to do "anything" since it's God who is just and knows all men's hearts, who makes a righteous judgement.

Oh, I don't doubt he knows our hearts, but I think we need to know that we will do what is right. Years ago my daughter got a sports trophy, which everyone on her team got. It was worthless to her because she knew she played horribly that day. So it is with us. How can we accept what we receive and rejoice in it if we feel we did nothing to earn it, not even our small part in keeping the commandments and loving our neighbors?

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Which got me to thinking about the proxy work done by the Church, such as baptism for the dead as an example.

Proxy marriages have long been a part of history. See this: proxy marriages

There is nothing unusual in doing proxy work, except the LDS have a responsibility to redeem their dead and therefore do proxy work for them. Because we believe that Christ-given ordinances as clearly described in the Bible are essential to return to our Heavenly Father, only an unjust God would not allow all his children to receive such ordinances. Proxy work for the dead provides that these ordinances are done and allows those spirits who have gone on to receive all the blessings they are entitled to if they are ready to do so in the Spirit World.

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Your second example makes much more sense than the first example. I take the scripture on Adam and Eve to mean not that they will die immediately, but they will go from eternal life in the Garden of Eden to a mortal, limited life, if they choose to eat the fruit. Thank you for your input!!

"Proxy" work is all over the Bible, Lareliw. It starts in Eden. G-d tells Adam & Eve not to heat the fruit, warning them they'll die if they do. Of course they do, but they don't die. Why not? Look at the coats of skins that G-d prepares for them to wear. How did G-d get those skins, if not from animals killed and skinned for the benefit of the man and the woman.

Those animals bore their transgression, and their hides covered their shame. A proxy was found by G-d and substituted in order to save mankind from the decreed consequence of their willful act in violation of G-d's decree.

Next we see Abraham finding a ram to sacrifice in Isaac's place.

The law of sacrifice is all about proxies.

The concept is clear and it's always been a part of things.

That we as Mormons act as proxies for others in the Temples should not be so very surprising. The details are not as interesting as the concept: we emulate the Master, Who was the great Proxy for us all, when we offer ourselves as proxies for others. We thereby become "Saviors on Mount Zion," another very Biblical concept. We aren't and cannot be anything as grand as the Master. Our poor gifts given to others and to Him are pitiable things, really. But give them we must.

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I don't recall ever reading that God forbade cooking.

Lehi

Yup. Fried Plantains are an abomination. Haven't you read Leviticus? It's right there.

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Any theories on how those who die before they have physical offspring have the ability to do that in the post realm?

I realize it is feasible that all this proxy work can be done by so few for so many, it just doesn't seem....to me anyway....a reasonable, or simplistic way to run an existence.

I'm not sure if they can have physical offspring. Maybe there's a way, maybe there isn't. However, their spiritual children will be able to have physical offspring, which will be just as joyful to them =).

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I have done probably a thousand of baptisms for the dead. It really saddens me how much time I wasted doing something I thought was the truth. Of course now that I am a Christian and have studied the Bible, I know the real truth. Baptisms for the dead is a farse, created by Joseph Smith, the master of lies. Instead of spending money on the poor and homeless who could benifit from this expensive buildings, the DEAD who do not care are worshipped by the LDS. It is such a sad state. Shame on those who know better, or are just too ignorant.

A word of caution. The moderators will get you if you aren't respectful. You may disagree..........just do it with class.

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There was an interesting topic that was locked below regarding priesthood functions if no priesthood member was present. Which got me to thinking about the proxy work done by the Church, such as baptism for the dead as an example. I have to admit I don't *really* understand it, but what would happen should you die and you do not have someone to proxy for you? Same with sealing of children, etc. If this is not done and you pass on, can this be done by proxy and if it can, but there is no one to complete it for you, what happens then? Oh and out of curiosity where in scripture are these various proxies mentioned? I also was wondering, as I heard someone somewhere state, I can't even remember where, that LDS put more faith and trust into Joseph Smith's words than in the Bible. Where does the Bible stand as far as your scriptures are concerned?

Christ is proxy for us in the Atonement. It could be said Adam and Eve were proxy for us in the decision to Fall. Scriptures: Matthew 25: 31-46 where what we do to the least we do unto Christ; Levirite marriage; taking the name of Christ upon us.

There is no way there will be no person to act as proxy for another; the Lord will see to that.

The Bible is part of our scriptural canon and is taught from often in Church publications.

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There was an interesting topic that was locked below regarding priesthood functions if no priesthood member was present. Which got me to thinking about the proxy work done by the Church, such as baptism for the dead as an example. I have to admit I don't *really* understand it, but what would happen should you die and you do not have someone to proxy for you? Same with sealing of children, etc. If this is not done and you pass on, can this be done by proxy and if it can, but there is no one to complete it for you, what happens then?

As far as proxy ordinances are concerned there will be no one that doesn't have there ordinances done when the day of Judgement comes. One of the important things that will happen during the millennial reign of Christ is that all temple work will be completed for everyone who has lived without hearing the Fullness of the Gospel. We will even have the help of our ancestors in the millennium to find those who we do not know yet, we do work we can now and know that there is much more work to be done in the millennium. Also one does not have to be a direct desendant to perform ordinance work, they can perform it on behalf of a direct descendant. Every temple has a requests for members to perform work on behalf of someone else's descendants because that person cannot make it to temple because of financial (they live to far away), health, or other issues.

If there is no living descendant then someone else will do the work for those people.

Oh and out of curiosity where in scripture are these various proxies mentioned?

The only reference in the Bible is 1 Corinthians 15 (the specific verse that mentions baptism for the dead is verse 29) the chapter is about resurrection and the Three Kingdoms (or Glory) of Heaven.

The proxy ordinances were restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith and they are recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, see sections 124, 127, 128, 137, and 138.

Here is the link for the Doctrine and Covenants online, http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament?lang=eng

I also was wondering, as I heard someone somewhere state, I can't even remember where, that LDS put more faith and trust into Joseph Smith's words than in the Bible. Where does the Bible stand as far as your scriptures are concerned?

This is simply not true, we have faith in the Bible and the teachings of Joseph Smith. The Bible is some of the oldest records of God to his prophets, we cherish the Bible, we accept it as the Word of God as far as it is correctly translated from the Hebrew and Greek. We also have the Joseph Smith Translation this is a inspired translation of the King James Version of the Holy Bible. It was done by the command of God and clarifies and restores lost details and verses to the KJV, the LDS KJV has the JST in the footnotes and has long passages in an index in the back of the record. We have always taught from the KJV Bible, and cherish that KJV Bible (with JST) as the most correct translation of the Holy Bible that man has.

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I have done probably a thousand of baptisms for the dead. It really saddens me how much time I wasted doing something I thought was the truth. Of course now that I am a Christian and have studied the Bible, I know the real truth. Baptisms for the dead is a farse, created by Joseph Smith, the master of lies. Instead of spending money on the poor and homeless who could benifit from this expensive buildings, the DEAD who do not care are worshipped by the LDS. It is such a sad state. Shame on those who know better, or are just too ignorant.

So the prophesy of Malachi that Elijah will come and turn the hearts of the sons to the fathers least the earth be smitten with a curse when Christ returns, or Paul's reference to the Baptisms for the Dead that happened in the early Church is ignorance of the Bible?

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I understand that the LDS theory of proxy baptism paves the way for all to meet the demand laid out in scripture. Every soul that was born is baptized either in person or by substitution.

How does it work tho for the other ordinances? For instance, sealing families together or celestial marriages. How does a person that excepts the gospel, and their proxy baptism, while they are in spirit prison, and then wishes to attain full benefit of celestial glory, get sealed to family and potential wives.....

Since all proxy baptisms are in essence speculative, is there also speculative spousal and familial sealings? Because many have speculated that those who die before they have had the opportunity to live... much, will be given the chance in the post world...To meet and woo a spouse. How can god work this out?

Baptism is all that is required to enter the celestial kingdom. But, only those "accountable" need baptism: SO, fully half of the earth's earlier inhabitants will never require baptism at all, having died long before "the age of accountability", i.e. c. 8 years old.

The other ordinances are all added onto after baptism, which is the first. Oh, there is the sealing of family members, - even infants - but that is not an ordinance pertaining to progression. "Little children are incapable of sin and have no need of baptism" (a paraphrase). So all the subsequent temple ordinances are likewise unnecessary ergo not required for all little children who died.

Many (most) temple ordinances up to this point are redundant, i.e. done for the same names more than once....

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