tana Posted February 17, 2011 Author Posted February 17, 2011 What are the reasons for this? Several.Namely?
SilverKnight Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Despite the fallacious appeal to number of adherents, I would add that LDS theology deals with the Fate of the Unevangelized better than any other Christian religion - perhaps an other religion in general.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Namely?Man's agency.I also think it is for the faithful, that is to say, that the faithful are givin the blessing of being missionaries and doing their duty.I am sure there are more than this too.
tana Posted February 17, 2011 Author Posted February 17, 2011 Despite the fallacious appeal to number of adherents, I would add that LDS theology deals with the Fate of the Unevangelized better than any other Christian religion - perhaps an other religion in general.I don't disagree with this even a little. I am trying to point out however that the format that the church presents has all the earmarks of reincarnation. Which I don't disagree with either.
Jason Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 How do you know *you* are not in the post existence right now?Because I don't remember dying and I still have a physical body.Really, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Spirit World will be completely indistinguishable from this mortal existence.
Jason Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I don't disagree with this even a little. I am trying to point out however that the format that the church presents has all the earmarks of reincarnation. Which I don't disagree with either.No it doesn't. What earmarks are you talking about?
tana Posted February 17, 2011 Author Posted February 17, 2011 Because I don't remember dying and I still have a physical body.Really, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Spirit World will be completely indistinguishable from this mortal existence.It was discussed here recently. I didn't ever see you weigh in on this conversation. If you have the inclination, weigh in there, with special attn. to post #11 by "No Fear".
Calm Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 whatever the number is its gonna take 1000 years of temple work to get em all covered!urroner calculated how long it was going to take given IIRC something like 1000 temples worldwide with so many sessions going 5 days a week all day long (I think he did it am and pm but if not, one only has to double the time required). Numbers he chose were very reasonable based on what is done today. The number of individuals needing blessings was a generous estimate based on current projections of past, present and future.IIRC, it took less than half the 1000 years to get the work all completed for everyone who has ever lived on earth up until the Millennium.This assumes a constant supply of names and that is something that would be very different than exists today since the majority of humanity prior to these last two centuries are not easily found through man's records, so we are making an assumptions that the records that we will be working off of are God's or at least something he has put into place to serve that purpose.If you are curious about the exact numbers, you can do a search on the esteemed "urroner" and perhaps "millennium" or "templework" and see if any of the few threads that had this info got saved during the update.
krose Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Despite the fallacious appeal to number of adherents, I would add that LDS theology deals with the Fate of the Unevangelized better than any other Christian religion - perhaps an other religion in general.Not universalists, which would include religions that believe all will be reincarnated.
Jason Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 It was discussed here recently. I didn't ever see you weigh in on this conversation. If you have the inclination, weigh in there, with special attn. to post #11 by "No Fear".I've weighed in now. I don't see "No Fear"'s post as arguing that the spirit world is completely indistinguishable from our own, or that people there won't remember having been in this world.
Walden Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Because I don't remember dying and I still have a physical body.Really, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Spirit World will be completely indistinguishable from this mortal existence.I wouldn't use memory as a point for proving the reality of something's existence ("I don't remember dying").....do you remember the pre-existence? But you still believe that it happened, no?
Jason Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 I wouldn't use memory as a point for proving the reality of something's existence ("I don't remember dying").....do you remember the pre-existence? But you still believe that it happened, no?We are told that there is a veil between the pre-existence and our mortal existence that has been placed on our memories. There is no such veil between this existence and the next - the spirit world. D&C 137 and 138 show that those in the Spirit World remember who they were in mortality and are aware that they don't have physical bodies.
Questing Beast Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Because I don't remember dying and I still have a physical body.Really, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Spirit World will be completely indistinguishable from this mortal existence.Faith. Having lived a mortal existence will be a matter of faith to those already "dead". We return to a state we have always known, and only have memories of a weird dreamlike state (mortality) where we "died" after going through some rather bizarre and hellish experiences. If we could simply compare where we are (spirit world) with where we had already been (earth life), the Mormon cosmology would make perfect sense, and only a "son of perdition" would reject it. So the conclusion must be that to believe that you are actually in a "spirit prison" will require faith.BTW, Mormons only make up c. .2% of c. 7 billion souls. And the percentage of Mormons in the world is shrinking steadily....
Jason Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Faith. Having lived a mortal existence will be a matter of faith to those already "dead". We return to a state we have always known, and only have memories of a weird dreamlike state (mortality) where we "died" after going through some rather bizarre and hellish experiences.I'm not sure I agree. For one thing, they won't have any memory of returning to a state they knew before (the veil will still be in place). If we could simply compare where we are (spirit world) with where we had already been (earth life), the Mormon cosmology would make perfect sense, and only a "son of perdition" would reject it. So the conclusion must be that to believe that you are actually in a "spirit prison" will require faith.I agree that it may involve faith to believe that you are in Spirit Prison, but not that a simple comparison of the Spirit World to our Earth life would mean that everyone will instantly accept LDS cosmology. They'll simply say "well, they were right about the 'life after death' part, but that doesn't prove the rest."BTW, Mormons only make up c. .2% of c. 7 billion souls. And the percentage of Mormons in the world is shrinking steadily....Which is perfectly in keeping with scriptural depictions of a narrow and straight way to salvation, with few finding it.
nicolasconnault Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Faith. Having lived a mortal existence will be a matter of faith to those already "dead". We return to a state we have always known, and only have memories of a weird dreamlike state (mortality) where we "died" after going through some rather bizarre and hellish experiences. If we could simply compare where we are (spirit world) with where we had already been (earth life), the Mormon cosmology would make perfect sense, and only a "son of perdition" would reject it. So the conclusion must be that to believe that you are actually in a "spirit prison" will require faith.BTW, Mormons only make up c. .2% of c. 7 billion souls. And the percentage of Mormons in the world is shrinking steadily....My most sincere commiserations over your bizarre and hellish mortal existence... I wish I could understand what you're going through!
LeSellers Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Mormons only make up c. .2% of c. 7 billion souls. And the percentage of Mormons in the world is shrinking steadily....This makes no sense at all. Being higher than the average, LDS birthrates, alone, would make the ratio of LDS to the rest of the world rise. Coupled with a rather large percentage increase in membership due to conversions, we'd have to be increasing the proportion of LDSs to total world population. In the "contest" between mothers and missionaries, mothers should be winning: there are more of them, and they "serve" longer. I know my mission was fairly unimpressive in terms of baptisms, and my Jacquie has me beat by more than 2:1. In fact, except for two of our sons, all of our nine Returned Missionaries (all seven sons and two daughters), all their families are larger than their convert baptism numbers. Lehi
MorningStar Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Temple work and missionary work on the other side of the veil make it possible for everyone to hear the Gospel and be baptized.
tana Posted February 18, 2011 Author Posted February 18, 2011 I've weighed in now. I don't see "No Fear"'s post as arguing that the spirit world is completely indistinguishable from our own, or that people there won't remember having been in this world.I'm responding to your weigh in from that thread in this. 'Jason' "Of course, everyone in the spirit world will also remember having been in this one, no one there will be able to die or procreate (new people show up when they die instead), and there must be some other differences between being a disembodied spirit and having a body or there would be no need for us to get a body in the first place". Whatever the laws of motion are from your point of reference *are* the norm. If in the incarnation and dimension of space time you are experiencing thru the senses of your material spirit body the *norm* is for individuals to appear thru spontaneous spawning, that would be your reality and you would have no concept of procreation thru mating, conception, birthing.The question of why the need of two physical bodies for a entity to embed in is one I've raised also. The picture painted by LDS philosophy of the pre world is one of spirits "shouting for *joy*", making decisions, getting cast out of heaven. That leads me to think that they are experiencing space/time from behind the eyes of a mechanical body, and with all the physicality, emotions, sensations that go with it, and with a *veil* masking their awareness of all truth.If these different estates really are testing grounds then it seems odd that post mortal souls would keep their mortal memories. The pre spirits don't get to keep their *intelligence realm* memories, neither are the mortals allowed any peeks. How many memories do the posties get...all the way to the intelligence realm? That doesn't hardly seem fair. Wouldn't that be an instant give-away to get on board with the program?The LDS theory has that the *best* testing grounds is the mortal estate, yet 1/3 of all...50 billion souls are tested and sorted in the pre-state, Less than 1% are tested in the *best* stage, and the rest, 80, 90, maybe 100 billion get tested almost as an afterthought.That's why I endorse some form of limited reincarnation. Some have argued that 'one' of gods days is like one thousand years to mortals.....maybe that theory can also be applied to lives.
CV75 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 they are experiencing space/time from behind the eyes of a mechanical body, with a *veil* masking their awareness of all truth.How many memories do the posties getThe LDS theory has that the *best* testing grounds is the mortal estateThat's why I endorse some form of limited reincarnation.Many things other than a mechanical body provide a veil, or prevent full the comprehension of all the truth someone else has attained. Sometimes it is simply developmental; comprehending all truth comes after much learning and application. For example, forgetting the pre-mortal world and retaining mortal memories in the after-life could be unremarkably normal and much in line with the capacities developed in the prior stage.Remembering mortal lessons and skills is not necessarily an advantage. A mortal being may have learned denial, stubbornness, substitution, etc. and retain these
Jason Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Whatever the laws of motion are from your point of reference *are* the norm. If in the incarnation and dimension of space time you are experiencing thru the senses of your material spirit body the *norm* is for individuals to appear thru spontaneous spawning, that would be your reality and you would have no concept of procreation thru mating, conception, birthing.But of course, the people in the Spirit World have already been embodied and experienced procreation, death, etc. Therefore the only people who wouldn't see the differences between their current and former existence are those who didn't spend long enough here to form any memories - people who died extremely young.The question of why the need of two physical bodies for a entity to embed in is one I've raised also. The picture painted by LDS philosophy of the pre world is one of spirits "shouting for *joy*", making decisions, getting cast out of heaven. That leads me to think that they are experiencing space/time from behind the eyes of a mechanical body, and with all the physicality, emotions, sensations that go with it, and with a *veil* masking their awareness of all truth.I don't see any reasons to suppose an unembodied spirit can't shout for joy, make decisions, be cast out of heaven, have emotions, etc. If these different estates really are testing grounds then it seems odd that post mortal souls would keep their mortal memories. The pre spirits don't get to keep their *intelligence realm* memories, neither are the mortals allowed any peeks. How many memories do the posties get...all the way to the intelligence realm? That doesn't hardly seem fair. Wouldn't that be an instant give-away to get on board with the program?Keeping your mortal memories does not "give away the game" for those in the Spirit World. It only proves those who believed there was nothing after death wrong - it certainly doesn't prove by itself that the LDS are right.As I said - D&C 137 and 138 seem to show that the spirits in the Spirit World do in fact retain their memories of this life, and are conscious of no longer possessing a physical body.I also don't see any reason to think that we didn't remember "intelligence realm" memories during the Pre-Existence. The LDS theory has that the *best* testing grounds is the mortal estate, yet 1/3 of all...50 billion souls are tested and sorted in the pre-state, Less than 1% are tested in the *best* stage, and the rest, 80, 90, maybe 100 billion get tested almost as an afterthought.You don't need knowledge of the gospel in order to be tested in this life. In fact, the only people who are not tested during their mortal existence are those who die before they reach the age of accountability or otherwise never develop the capacity to make moral choices (the mentally handicapped). That is a distinct minority of humanity. And I will call no one's test "an afterthought".
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 You don't need knowledge of the gospel in order to be tested in this life. In fact, the only people who are not tested during their mortal existence are those who die before they reach the age of accountability or otherwise never develop the capacity to make moral choices (the mentally handicapped). That is a distinct minority of humanity. And I will call no one's test "an afterthought".You forgot those born during the millennium, they too are never tested by Satan since he is locked away for the millennium.
Jason Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 You forgot those born during the millennium, they too are never tested by Satan since he is locked away for the millennium.I'm not sure that Satan not being present means they will have no test. Satan himself managed to fail his test without Satan's help, at least. He is also going to be released for a bit at the end, and presumably everyone born during the Millenium will still be around to be tempted by him then.
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