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Pre, present, post. phinal


tana

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I think that we tend to put the spirit worlds into a separate little basket in our minds, toss random information into it, but seldom sit down and visit it with deductive reasoning. We throw these threads in from our childhood teachers, parent opinions, discussion boards, and this builds a worldview in our minds. But we....or I anyway, have a difficult time constructing a picture in my mind of what it could even possible look like. And I've been a builder all my life, I've always been pretty good at forming a picture in my mind of a proposed structure.

But all I come up with when trying to conceptualize the spirit world is fuzzy images flitting about darkly....like an incoherent dream.

Maybe it's because of the inconsistency in the stories that go into the basket. IE. countless depictions in artwork of the devil and hades, or Jesus in the clouds. Angels with wings, lions and lambs. Throw in a fire breathing seminary teacher and her depictions of spirits "burned like the stubble", add a dose of ghost stories, where spirits can move thru walls but for some reason don't sink into the floor.... and one gets some serious confusion.

Does anyone here have a clean picture built in their mind as to what it might look like?

If one were to base a model of pre and post mortal life on the concept that: We are an entity experiencing our environment through the senses of our "more fine" material spirit body, Then it would seem to me that from the entities perspective, the entity exists in a realm of substance/matter.....similar to, if not exactly like this existence we are having now.

Which begs the question, well, a few questions; How would one tell the difference between pre, proper, post and phinal existences? Why does one need two material bodies (spirit, physical) to nest in?

If I still adhered to a reward and punishment model, I think that I would vote this to be a final disposition *hell* state, as it fits with that concept in which we are kept in the dark (out of gods presence) and fed a steady diet of manu....propaganda.

Curt

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Analogies to spirit matter in current science do exist such as dark matter and neutrinos, all in a category generally understood to be "WIMP" or Weakly Interacting particles. In other words, they do not interact with the electro-magnetic force, and therefore, they cannot be touched or seen, because electro-magnetic bonds and light for that matter are all dependent on interaction with photons, which WIMP particles do not interact with. Only occasionally do neutrinos interact with atomic nuclei, and in those instances only with the weak nuclear force, though trillions are streaming through our bodies at any moment in time. No wonder it is called the "ghost" particle. Dark matter only is detectable on galactic scales where the effects of its gravity can be seen.

Therefore, it seems reasonable that spirit similarly falls into some general category of matter that doesn't interact with photons or electro-magnetic force, and is therefore imperceptible through conventional means.

Ed Goble

I think that we tend to put the spirit worlds into a separate little basket in our minds, toss random information into it, but seldom sit down and visit it with deductive reasoning. We throw these threads in from our childhood teachers, parent opinions, discussion boards, and this builds a worldview in our minds. But we....or I anyway, have a difficult time constructing a picture in my mind of what it could even possible look like. And I've been a builder all my life, I've always been pretty good at forming a picture in my mind of a proposed structure.

But all I come up with when trying to conceptualize the spirit world is fuzzy images flitting about darkly....like an incoherent dream.

Maybe it's because of the inconsistency in the stories that go into the basket. IE. countless depictions in artwork of the devil and hades, or Jesus in the clouds. Angels with wings, lions and lambs. Throw in a fire breathing seminary teacher and her depictions of spirits "burned like the stubble", add a dose of ghost stories, where spirits can move thru walls but for some reason don't sink into the floor.... and one gets some serious confusion.

Does anyone here have a clean picture built in their mind as to what it might look like?

If one were to base a model of pre and post mortal life on the concept that: We are an entity experiencing our environment through the senses of our "more fine" material spirit body, Then it would seem to me that from the entities perspective, the entity exists in a realm of substance/matter.....similar to, if not exactly like this existence we are having now.

Which begs the question, well, a few questions; How would one tell the difference between pre, proper, post and phinal existences? Why does one need two material bodies (spirit, physical) to nest in?

If I still adhered to a reward and punishment model, I think that I would vote this to be a final disposition *hell* state, as it fits with the concept that we are kept in the dark (out of gods presence) and fed a steady diet of manu....propaganda.

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Analogies to spirit matter in current science do exist such as dark matter and neutrinos, all in a category generally understood to be "WIMP" or Weakly Interacting particles. In other words, they do not interact with the electro-magnetic force, and therefore, they cannot be touched or seen, because electro-magnetic bonds and light for that matter are all dependent on interaction with photons, which WIMP particles do not interact with. Only occasionally do neutrinos interact with atomic nuclei, and in those instances only with the weak nuclear force, though trillions are streaming through our bodies at any moment in time. No wonder it is called the "ghost" particle. Dark matter only is detectable on galactic scales where the effects of its gravity can be seen.

Therefore, it seems reasonable that spirit similarly falls into some general category of matter that doesn't interact with photons or electro-magnetic force, and is therefore imperceptible through conventional means.

Ed Goble

Thanks Ed. I appreciate any insights I can get into the mysterious word of physics.

Have you constructed a model of what life might be like in the spirit realm? Do you think that from the entities perspective it is in it's own dimension of matter and substance?

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Which begs the question, well, a few questions; How would one tell the difference between pre, proper, post and phinal existences?

As the well known quote goes, "It's all relative!" Pre to one is Post to another.

Why does one need two material bodies (spirit, physical) to nest in?

I believe because faith effects the spiritual existence. But I am not sure. In any case, we need to be able to effect both the spiritual and physical existences if we are exalted, to do the things we have to do, I belive.

I am also pretty sure that the Holy Ghost may not be able to speak to us without a spiritual existence.

Also, considering the difficulties in programming a personality via the brain (you have to have a start button somewhere to start the self-writing program), I think your spirit may tie into your personality somewhat. But again, not sure... just taking guesses.

If I still adhered to a reward and punishment model, I think that I would vote this to be a final disposition *hell* state, as it fits with that concept in which we are kept in the dark (out of gods presence) and fed a steady diet of manu....propaganda.

I have not gone through the celestial mairrage rite, but I have heard it supposedly answers this question. In either case, we can't talk of it here. Seek for the temple though, and it might make things clear =).

Best Wishes,

TAO

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If one were to base a model of pre and post mortal life on the concept that: We are an entity experiencing our environment through the senses of our "more fine" material spirit body, Then it would seem to me that from the entities perspective, the entity exists in a realm of substance/matter.....similar to, if not exactly like this existence we are having now.

Which begs the question, well, a few questions; How would one tell the difference between pre, proper, post and phinal existences? Why does one need two material bodies (spirit, physical) to nest in?

Here

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Thanks Tao, Thanks CV. Always glad to have you guys present your ideas.

What picture do you guys conjure up in your minds eye when thinking about these four realms. Take for instance the pre-existence.....Do you see an earthly *type* experience? What do you see for a social setting? Do you have buildings and beds, sidewalks and sleds? Do you see a more primitive or more futuristic environment in reference to our technology of today?

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Pre... yes... a glorified Earth... in the prescense of the Father, on a planet near the star Kolob... but I suppose it could be elsewhere too.

As in terms of communication... I don't know if we will do much speaking physically in comparison to speaking to each other spiritually (kinda like telepathy)... but again, that's just my mind wandering.

I don't think there is all too much technology... there might be some... but generally it is un-needed. Technology is lightly used I guess.

But I don't know... there is alot it could be like... and I wouldn't have the beset idea... I don't remember seeing the place... or if I do it has faded into my other memories. Perhaps I'll think on it tonight, and see what I find =).

What do you mean by Phinal POV though, just curious?

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Pre... yes... a glorified Earth... in the prescense of the Father, on a planet near the star Kolob... but I suppose it could be elsewhere too.

As in terms of communication... I don't know if we will do much speaking physically in comparison to speaking to each other spiritually (kinda like telepathy)... but again, that's just my mind wandering.

I don't think there is all too much technology... there might be some... but generally it is un-needed. Technology is lightly used I guess.

But I don't know... there is alot it could be like... and I wouldn't have the beset idea... I don't remember seeing the place... or if I do it has faded into my other memories. Perhaps I'll think on it tonight, and see what I find =).

What do you mean by Phinal POV though, just curious?

Let me guess: Phinal = Final? Google Chrome and Firefox have pretty good spell checkers that underscore nonsense words (like prescense) in red wiggly lines. Very handy :P

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I

Let me guess: Phinal = Final? Google Chrome and Firefox have pretty good spell checkers that underscore nonsense words (like prescense) in red wiggly lines. Very handy :P

Yah... but how would final be different from post? I wonder... by post, is tana referring to the waiting zone before resurrection?

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Take for instance the pre-existence.....Do you see an earthly *type* experience?

The way I think about it, even though it is a place suitable for the coexistence of spirits, element, and spirit and element inseparably connected, our spirit senses could only perceive and communicate to the degree they were developed through practice, faith and obedience. The more these were developed, the more of the elemental and resurrected (including Heavenly Father) aspects of the environment we could accurately perceive, communicate with and interact with. For example, at first we perceived only Heavenly Father

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Does anyone here have a clean picture built in their mind as to what it might look like?

The spirit world resembles our world to a high degree (or rather the other way around). The Garden of Eden was patterned after our pre-mortal abode.

There are plants, animals, buildings, clothes, light, color, smells, touching, hearing, and so on all in the spirit world. The spirit world is just that, a world -- full of immense complexity and beauty.

To first approximation, one might adopt a mirror matter like model for spirit matter. However, for reasons that I shan't mention at this time, a perfect mirror matter for spirit matter will not work. There are significant differences which are not fully understood.

Now, why two bodies? I explain my view of that in the thread on the brain.

These two forms of matter really don't interact at all. Thus a spirit body would really only effectively acquire information about the spirit side of the universe and a physical body the physical side of the universe. Thus, a truly intelligent being with a full awareness of reality would need both bodies.
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I

Yah... but how would final be different from post? I wonder... by post, is tana referring to the waiting zone before resurrection?

Sorry bout that chief. I was just trying to be clever with the phinal/final bit.

Yes, with "post" I was referring to the realm of existence between the mortal and the Resurrection/final.

If a guy wanted to get technical, we could also add certainly one, and conceivably infinite more incarnations to the list. I.E. Intelligence realm, then pre, present, post, final....then. potentially endless second chances when *Gods punishment* is over.

Which in effect is reincarnation. All happening here on this earth, which when you think about it....why not? This is pre for some, present for some, hell/punishment for some...etc.

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The spirit world resembles our world to a high degree (or rather the other way around). The Garden of Eden was patterned after our pre-mortal abode.

There are plants, animals, buildings, clothes, light, color, smells, touching, hearing, and so on all in the spirit world. The spirit world is just that, a world -- full of immense complexity and beauty.

:P

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I just wanted to add that, believe it or not, what I am about on this board is NOT tearing down Mormonism, but trying to reconcile, locate a compatible model that with a little tweaking on both sides may come into line enough to satiate ones quest for logic while also fitting into that basket of Mormonisms.

The way I think about it, even though it is a place suitable for the coexistence of spirits, element, and spirit and element inseparably connected, our spirit senses could only perceive and communicate to the degree they were developed through practice, faith and obedience. The more these were developed, the more of the elemental and resurrected (including Heavenly Father) aspects of the environment we could accurately perceive, communicate with and interact with. For example, at first we perceived only Heavenly Father

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I just wanted to add that, believe it or not, what I am about on this board is NOT tearing down Mormonism

I'm having a hard time picturing in my mind the *place* this is happening.

I see spirit as having only a few options as to its form/shape/substance, living arrangements.

I do believe you are not about tearing down Mormonism, and I hope my replies do not convey that I do not!

To complete my model, I subscribe to No Fear

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...Does anyone here have a clean picture built in their mind as to what it might look like?....

Curt

I am a simple man. The so-called spirit world must be familiar vis-a-vis compared to this one. Not all of it, but the good bits; the paradisiacal bits. The hellish bits are only mortal fear and foolishness and ultimately temporary as nightmares are temporary.

In short, I don't expect the spirit world to be any such thing from the perspective of those inhabiting it. For one thing, the whole concept of a spirit as disembodied is probably the effect of observing death from "this end", and has nothing to do with reality. I visualize immortal beings remaining as such; embodied, fully functioning, sensory beings, always and forever....

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The spirit world resembles our world to a high degree (or rather the other way around). The Garden of Eden was patterned after our pre-mortal abode.

There are plants, animals, buildings, clothes, light, color, smells, touching, hearing, and so on all in the spirit world. The spirit world is just that, a world -- full of immense complexity and beauty.

Of course, everyone in the spirit world will also remember having been in this one, no one there will be able to die or procreate (new people show up when they die instead), and there must be some other differences between being a disembodied spirit and having a body or there would be no need for us to get a body in the first place.

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