Excommunication in the Church

[mfbukowski]

Clarification would be a good start. As this thread shows, active, believing LDS with good hearts come at the issue from all angles. This, to me, shows an institutional lack of clarity.

As I mentioned earlier, some think the process is about retribution, others about rehabilitation, and still others about penance. Some say it is required for repentance, but only for some people and in some circumstances. And in spite of posting a myriad of scriptures which uphold my position, I'm getting asked whether or not I support the brethren. Doesn't that seem to you like we could administratively tidy the issue up some?

edit: I just saw your edit - if the conversation I had a few weeks back is an indicator, it needs to be clarified in the CHI for leaders and the doctrine clearly needs to be clarified among members as well when we cover relevant scriptures in classes and such.

FWIW, I think we are moving in the right direction, I just don't think we've arrived. When I was an adolescent, teenagers were being routinely exed in my stake. You don't see that today.

Please give me suggested wording which should be implemented.

[mercyngrace]

Please give me suggested wording which should be implemented.

What? And steady the ark from my living room?

Seriously, mfb, that's above my pay grade and we both know it. But my opinion is that the focus should be on what the scriptures specifically say about excommunication. As I said earlier, I can't find the verses that say "Repent and be cast out". The guidelines for excommunication are quite specific in the scriptures and apply to the unrepentant or a few other select cases. Why isn't that a valid guide?

[bluebell]

The fact that you believe this needs to be mentioned, shows that you've misunderstood me from the start. I have never said that repentant or penitent equals a mere confession. Not once. In fact I have repeatedly cited the confess AND FORSAKE formula provided in the D&C. There are two other courses of action that allow time, bluebell, formal probation and disfellowshipment.

MercynGrace, I highlighted the part of that quote that was relative to my point. I think if you read it again with emphasis on the bolded part, you'll see why i used the quote and what i was trying to address.

There has been no misunderstanding on my part from the start.

[mercyngrace]

MercynGrace, I highlighted the part of that quote that was relative to my point. I think if you read it again with emphasis on the bolded part, you'll see why i used the quote and what i was trying to address.

There has been no misunderstanding on my part from the start.

BB, disfellowshipment and formal probation also offer time to reform.

[bluebell]

BB, disfellowshipment and formal probation also offer time to reform.

Of course. If the spirit directs that excommunication isn't necessary, then the spirit knows best. If the spirit is saying that excommunication is necessary, then the spirit still knows best.

[stYro]

I have a question. But first, I"m gonna gripe a bit.

"By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins

[mercyngrace]

I have a question. But first, I"m gonna gripe a bit.

"By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins

[rockslider]

Wow, that M&G is really out there!

[bluebell]

Wow, that M&G is really out there!

[David T]

At least now, It is standard procedure - and is mandatory - to inform the individual that they have the right and option to appeal. If this was not presented in the Council setting itself, your SP would be required to make sure you understood your options.

Anyway a few days after the "court of love", I got a strange phone call. It was the stake president, and he said, "You know, stYro, you can appeal the church court's decision to the area president [or whoever is next up the chain of command] if you want to. I can contact him for you, if you would like." I declined, figuring an appeal would be a waste of time.

So here comes my question. Maybe someone who knows more about the inner workings of this process can enlighten me: Is it standard procedure for the stake president to make that sort of phone call, offering to help someone they'd just ex'd to begin the appeals process?

Thanks,

stYro

[rockslider]

Are you under the impression that those of us who have disagreed with MnG on certain issues do not believe in forgiveness for the repentant?

Have you even read the whole thread?

I read it, and somewhat in dismay have responded. Maybe it's not so much about your believe in forgiveness for the repentant as it is such an expertise and prefection in a process of judgement.

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied,

[bluebell]

I read it, and somewhat in dismay have responded. Maybe it's not so much about your believe in forgiveness for the repentant as it is such an expertise and prefection in a process of judgement.

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied,

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I read it, and somewhat in dismay have responded. Maybe it's not so much about your believe in forgiveness for the repentant as it is such an expertise and prefection in a process of judgement.

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied,

[mercyngrace]

deleted

[rockslider]

Bluebell, It was not my intention to single you out at all. I'm sorry I used the terms "you, your" etc. In so doing I was referring to the active orthodox members of the church that readily support the party line sentiments surrounding this topic.

What is really a shame is how those same orthodox members will so quickly turn a venomous strike towards one such as M&G for even suggesting something other than the well established processes of judges and judgment, but would instead propose Christ like Beatitudes .

As my old friend Hyrum used to say. The only thing Mormon's need to repent of is their own self righteousness.

This thread is really good case -in-point .

[stYro]

At least now, It is standard procedure - and is mandatory - to inform the individual that they have the right and option to appeal. If this was not presented in the Council setting itself, your SP would be required to make sure you understood your options.

Thank you very much.

stYro

[David T]

What is really a shame is how those same orthodox members will so quickly turn a venomous strike towards one such as M&G for even suggesting something other than the well established processes of judges and judgment, but would instead propose Christ like Beatitudes .

I for one don't think it's a dichotomony, and that the two are anywhere near mutual exclusives.

As my old friend Hyrum used to say. The only thing Mormon's need to repent of is their own self righteousness.

It goes both way, rockslider. Publicly accusing others of self-righteousness while justifying one's own qualities of mercy, unless you're Jesus, often gives the appearance of the pot calling the kettle black.

[mercyngrace]

I for one don't think it's a dichotomony, and that the two are anywhere near mutual exclusives.

It goes both way, rockslider. Judging oneself to be more merciful than someone else when it's clear the other opinion is not fully understood is a form of judgmental self-righteousness. Having listened to a lot of what your Old Friend Hyrum has had to say, I'm quite sure he's a work in progress on that principle as well, and would recognize that.

FWIW, the point isn't about who is more "merciful". The point is about what the scriptures say about excommunication. And as of yet, no one has shown, other than the instances I pointed out, where we are told to cast out people who are repentant.

The whole church is a work in progress, nack, which is why it doesn't bother me in the least to point out that we have room to go yet. I'm not offended by having to live a less than perfect law in a less than perfect world even if it occasionally frustrates me anymore than I expect faithful Nephites were offended at having to keep the law of Moses.

But we should be able to recognize that it's the (metaphorical) law of Moses we're living and acknowledge our imperfections without becoming defensive.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

For what it is worth, I believe a person who has repented before the Lord is in proper standing before the Lord, no matter what judicial procedure a church has decided to employ against him. I don't believe a church's discipline has any bearing on a person's covenant with God, if they have humbly repented before Him. A covenant is between the man and God, not the man and a church.

[bluebell]

FWIW, the point isn't about who is more "merciful".

I can appreciate that, but i think your second post in this thread implied that it WAS about who was more merciful and Christ-like.

"Other reasons include protecting innocent victims and protecting the good name of the church. So apparently, we also excommunicate for the benefit of people whose sensibilities might be offended by the extension of mercy."

It seems that you made a judgement in that sentence about those who disagree with you on the subject.

If it helps anyone understand my posts better, almost all my posts in this thread have been a reply to the above statement and implications in it.

[bluebell]

Bluebell, It was not my intention to single you out at all. I'm sorry I used the terms "you, your" etc. In so doing I was referring to the active orthodox members of the church that readily support the party line sentiments surrounding this topic.

What is really a shame is how those same orthodox members will so quickly turn a venomous strike towards one such as M&G for even suggesting something other than the well established processes of judges and judgment, but would instead propose Christ like Beatitudes .

As my old friend Hyrum used to say. The only thing Mormon's need to repent of is their own self righteousness.

This thread is really good case -in-point .

Thank you for clarifying.

Like Nack said though, i don't believe that justice and mercy are mutually exclusive characteristics. I think Christ is both and that His church is also both (though His church, being run by imperfect people, fails sometimes and i would never defend that failing as being what Christ would want from us).

[David T]

The whole church is a work in progress, nack, which is why it doesn't bother me in the least to point out that we have room to go yet. I'm not offended by having to live a less than perfect law in a less than perfect world even if it occasionally frustrates me anymore than I expect faithful Nephites were offended at having to keep the law of Moses.

But we should be able to recognize that it's the (metaphorical) law of Moses we're living and acknowledge our imperfections without becoming defensive.

For the record, I agree with this 100%, and never stated the current Church or practices are perfect. I have a heard a Stake President say an earlier excommunication should not have happened. On the other hand, I have participated in re-convened councils to re-admit the penitent, who bore testimony of the power and necessity of the period of excommunication and the perspective it brought to them, and actually assisted in their repentance process.

There is a much greater movement in the church leadership towards greater leaning towards mercy than perceived justice.

[Senator]

For what it is worth, I believe a person who has repented before the Lord is in proper standing before the Lord, no matter what judicial procedure a church has decided to employ against him. I don't believe a church's discipline has any bearing on a person's covenant with God, if they have humbly repented before Him. A covenant is between the man and God, not the man and a church.

BofMLvr,

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I will premptively give you a heads up, that you will not find support of this amoung the LDS. To them, the Church and God are nearly synonymous.

[rockslider]

I for one don't think it's a dichotomony, and that the two are anywhere near mutual exclusives.

It goes both way, rockslider. Publicly accusing others of self-righteousness while justifying one's own qualities of mercy, unless you're Jesus, often gives the appearance of the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm an apostate, one who struggles greatly with my spirituality. I am the worst at judging others and lay no claim to having any mercy, nor any expertise in these things.

I simply stopped in after a long absence and see my friend M&G in the midst of a contention which just did not seem to be making any sense, and felt to say something about it. She is my sister in Christ and I am grateful to her for showing a sinner like me such love.

This board is lucky to have her, and would be well to ponder what she has to say.

[bluebell]

BofMLvr,

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I will premptively give you a heads up, that you will not find support of this amoung the LDS. To them, the Church and God are nearly synonymous.

Actually, BoML is right and the church acknowledges that to a great degree.

Though we do see the Church as an extension of Christ because we believe it is essentially governed by Him, it is acknowledged that He is the final authority in eternal matters, not the church.

From the church's official statement on excommunication:

"That is the right test: a reformation of life. Only then may the God of heaven in his mercy and his goodness see fit to forgive us. He