mercyngrace Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Reading Moses 7 this week, I was struck by the question Enoch asked the Lord after seeing the depravity of man of the subjection of men to Satan. God even explains that "Satan shall be their father and misery their doom".Imagine a parent has just shown you a graphic video of the death of their child.What kind of heartless person asks the grieving parent "Why are you crying?"Sorrowing at the endless and eternal loss of your child is expected.The question only makes sense if God's mourning is counterintuitive.Thoughts?
volgadon Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 It certainly is counterintuitive to Enoch. The only question is why. If we look at this as an ascension text, a common reaction of the ascender is one of awe. Awe at the maginificence and terror of the heavenly realm and its hosts, awe at God's glory, splendour and majesty. God the king is above all and in control of all. His judgements are just. To see God displaying a human emotion such as grief is extremely surprising.It is also well worth comparing the midrashic parralel to this incident.
Gohan Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there...I don't know if Enoch really comprehended the love that Heavenly Father had for each of his individual creations, compared to the countless millions of things that he was seeing. Might just have not clicked with him.That's just my guess though.
consiglieri Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 1 Enoch 9:9-10--[T]he whole earth was filled with blood and oppression. And now behold, the Holy One will cry.________________________________And from L. Blau's article, "Metatron," in The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York: Funk & Wagnallis, 1904), 8:519, we have the following regarding God weeping in Enochic literature:When God wept over the destruction of the Temple, Metatron (Enoch) fell on his face and said: "I will weep; but weep not thou!" God answered and said: "If thou wilt not suffer me to weep, I will go wither thou canst not come and there I will lament."This is remarkably similar to PGP Enoch, where Enoch weeps over the sins of mankind, and then he sees God weep and, shocked, asks how it is that God can weep.These instances of God weeping are the only such occasions of which I am aware in the Bible, Old Testament Pseudepigrapha or New Testament Apocrypha.It is quite a coincidence . . .All the Best!--Consiglieri
mercyngrace Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 It's interesting to note that God isn't mourning loss in spite of the fact that Satan has become the father of some men. He only mourns the fact that we must suffer.
CV75 Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Reading Moses 7 this week, I was struck by the question Enoch asked the Lord after seeing the depravity of man of the subjection of men to Satan. God even explains that "Satan shall be their father and misery their doom".It seems that Enoch equates God being the embodiment of holiness, eternal life, endlessness, justice, mercy, kindness, peace and truth, and having His chosen people brought into His bosom, with having done so much within His power for His children that there is no room left for disappointment, sorrow, loss, grief, etc. But, for the moment at least, he apparently overlooked His being the personification of love and empathy, which are the very bases for the atonement (these attributes are not listed in verses 29
nicolasconnault Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Until I read this verse, I didn't consider the possibility that God can suffer. I thought that a heavenly existence, eternal life, is devoid of any kind of suffering. It is possible that Enoch had similar ideas, but was startled to realise that God can indeed suffer and grieve. In fact, is it truly possible to experience a "fullness of joy" without having the capacity to experience sorrow and grief?
oMtonic Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 1 Enoch 9:9-10--[T]he whole earth was filled with blood and oppression. And now behold, the Holy One will cry.________________________________And from L. Blau's article, "Metatron," in The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York: Funk & Wagnallis, 1904), 8:519, we have the following regarding God weeping in Enochic literature:When God wept over the destruction of the Temple, Metatron (Enoch) fell on his face and said: "I will weep; but weep not thou!" God answered and said: "If thou wilt not suffer me to weep, I will go wither thou canst not come and there I will lament."This is remarkably similar to PGP Enoch, where Enoch weeps over the sins of mankind, and then he sees God weep and, shocked, asks how it is that God can weep.These instances of God weeping are the only such occasions of which I am aware in the Bible, Old Testament Pseudepigrapha or New Testament Apocrypha.It is quite a coincidence . . .All the Best!--ConsiglieriThanks for sharing, consig! I think I remember reading about this quite a while ago.
Kevin Christensen Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 David Larsen blogged on this a while back.http://www.heavenlyascents.com/2009/11/10/the-weeping-god/Eugene England wrote a notable essay:http://www.smpt.org/docs/england_element1-1.htmlAnd Nibley's Enoch the Prophet discussed the parallels and implications.There was another essay on the Weeping God theme somewhere... yes, Daniel Peterson in the Reason, Revelation and Faithhttp://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=100&chapid=1112Kevin ChristensenPittsburgh, PA
mercyngrace Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 Thanks for the links, Kevin.I read the first two and started Dan Peterson's. My take on Moses 7 is a little different but in a fairly significant way. If I get more time and muster some motivation, I'll write it down. Suffice it to say, it has to do with progression, perfection, and the finite nature of suffering.
Zakuska Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 IMO, two of the most powerful words of scripture ever written...John 11:35Jesus wept.
frankenstein Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Enochs question is understandable, especially since he was commanded to prophesy the doom that was to come upon many people.
mercyngrace Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 Enochs question is understandable, especially since he was commanded to prophesy the doom that was to come upon many people.That's just it, Frank. You would expect God to sorrow/mourn/weep at the destruction of His children. So why ask why He's doing it when He does?If you saw someone get stabbed and then clutch their chest, you wouldn't ask "Why are you clutching your chest?" It would be obvious.If you saw someone clutch their chest when all indications are that they are in perfect health, you would ask "Why are you clutching your chest?"So. What indicated to Enoch that God's reaction was counterintuitive? Why was God's weeping a reaction that Enoch couldn't predict, understand, or expect?Much of the commentary indicates that Enoch is surprised that God is showing a very human emotion. I don't buy that. Enoch walked with God. He knew His attributes well enough to create Zion - a union of his own heart and mind with God's. I don't think He was taken by surprise that God emoted so much as that God's emotional response was this particular one.Why should God not weep in the face of the apparent destruction of His creation?
nicolasconnault Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 That's just it, Frank. You would expect God to sorrow/mourn/weep at the destruction of His children. So why ask why He's doing it when He does?If you saw someone get stabbed and then clutch their chest, you wouldn't ask "Why are you clutching your chest?" It would be obvious.If you saw someone clutch their chest when all indications are that they are in perfect health, you would ask "Why are you clutching your chest?"So. What indicated to Enoch that God's reaction was counterintuitive? Why was God's weeping a reaction that Enoch couldn't predict, understand, or expect?Much of the commentary indicates that Enoch is surprised that God is showing a very human emotion. I don't buy that. Enoch walked with God. He knew His attributes well enough to create Zion - a union of his own heart and mind with God's. I don't think He was taken by surprise that God emoted so much as that God's emotional response was this particular one.Why should God not weep in the face of the apparent destruction of His creation?My response (see above) wasn't about God's weeping being a surprisingly human reaction, but that it indicated Godly suffering. That was a surprise to me when I first came across that verse.
CV75 Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 Much of the commentary indicates that Enoch is surprised that God is showing a very human emotion. I don't buy that.If this is so, maybe he asked so he could record an official answer for our benefit, without making any assumptions.
frankenstein Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 That's just it, Frank. You would expect God to sorrow/mourn/weep at the destruction of His children. So why ask why He's doing it when He does?If God told me to tell everyone that God was going to kill them, no, I would not expect God to mourn; and so when I did see God mourn, I would ask God, how canst though weep?
mercyngrace Posted February 5, 2011 Author Posted February 5, 2011 If this is so, maybe he asked so he could record an official answer for our benefit, without making any assumptions.That's a possibility but what fun would that be
RBoylan Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 John Tvedtnes presented paper at the 1989 Sunstone Conference, "Mother Earth and Father Sky," where he discusses Moses 7 in light of the Ugaritic Tablets. It is available from Sunstone at:https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/shop/products/?product_id=2470&category=3Robert B.
Daniel Peterson Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 For what it's worth, here's something I published several years ago about Moses 7, which is one of my favorite chapters in scripture:http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=100&chapid=1112****Ah. I see that my piece has already been mentioned.
tana Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 It seems odd to me that God could weep. To look at it logistically, it seems to me as illogical that a being with perfect awareness would take time to feel sadness.If you look at God as an exalted man, tied to a physical body, experiencing reality through his senses and his intellect, even though he has access to all information, he still has to study it and react to it similar to the way we do. It would make sense to me that his brain presents information to him in a series of threads, choices, options.....for his awareness to select or decline. God simply has many, many more....to perhaps even all thoughts available to him at once.So, God sees a situation, (which couldn't possibly have snuck up on him) and is presented by his intellect to his awareness with many choices. One of which is to be sad. He can then choose to be sad if he wishes....but why would he, for he is also presented with the thought that; Sadness is temporary, painful, not beneficial to my exaltation, I already know what it feels like and have no need to be temporarily blue....And the same goes for angry, annoyed, frustrated......
nicolasconnault Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 It seems odd to me that God could weep. To look at it logistically, it seems to me as illogical that a being with perfect awareness would take time to feel sadness.If you look at God as an exalted man, tied to a physical body, experiencing reality through his senses and his intellect, even though he has access to all information, he still has to study it and react to it similar to the way we do. It would make sense to me that his brain presents information to him in a series of threads, choices, options.....for his awareness to select or decline. God simply has many, many more....to perhaps even all thoughts available to him at once.So, God sees a situation, (which couldn't possibly have snuck up on him) and is presented by his intellect to his awareness with many choices. One of which is to be sad. He can then choose to be sad if he wishes....but why would he, for he is also presented with the thought that; Sadness is temporary, painful, not beneficial to my exaltation, I already know what it feels like and have no need to be temporarily blue....And the same goes for angry, annoyed, frustrated......You make some valid points, except for the assumption that sadness is not beneficial. One view is that sadness and pain are both necessary for the experience of their opposites.
Calm Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 It seems odd to me that God could weep. To look at it logistically, it seems to me as illogical that a being with perfect awareness would take time to feel sadness.IIRC, CS Lewis in his The Great Divorce has one of his characters, a visitor to heaven and hell observe a family member try to persuade another family member (visiting heaven from hell) to join God and forsake hell. The hellbonded individual refuses in anger and stomps off, the heavenbonded individual leaves as well but is seen as unaffected by the rejection of the other, existing in the bliss of God....the idea being that if an individual wants to choose hell for him or her self that is one thing, it would be neither justice nor mercy for some other to suffer for that choice.However, the scriptures are full of God expressing emotion connected to the sins of his children and if he is the truest, fullest form of parent, then I see no reason why he wouldn't suffer in some aspect of his being from separation from the children he loves as well as sorrowing for the pain they have brought upon themselves while still being able to maintain 'eternal bliss' as well.
volgadon Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Found a good explanation in Stern and Mirsky's "Rabbinic Fantasies" that Metatron acts as the royal protocol officer, and is concerned about God's dignity. This probably plays some part in the book of Moses' portrayal.
nicolasconnault Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 However, the scriptures are full of God expressing emotion connected to the sins of his children and if he is the truest, fullest form of parent, then I see no reason why he wouldn't suffer in some aspect of his being from separation from the children he loves as well as sorrowing for the pain they have brought upon themselves while still being able to maintain 'eternal bliss' as well.These echo my thoughts. I'm also reminded of the clear promises given to the three Nephites, that while in their translated state they would not suffer except from sorrow for the sins of the world.
tana Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 You make some valid points, except for the assumption that sadness is not beneficial. One view is that sadness and pain are both necessary for the experience of their opposites.Thanks Nic. I've always felt that this is an issue that isn't easy to reconcile. That is the concept that heaven is a realm of idyllic bliss, but the inhabitants still enjoy free will, choices, preferences. It would seem like these choices must run the gambit of options. Can a person be uncomfortable/in pain because it becomes too hot or too cold? Does one always have a feeling of perfect health, always feel good? If one were to feel better than good, to drop back into feeling only good would be like feeling ill.When I try to analyze it I have trouble seeing how a place like heaven with it's lore of only good, lovely, pleasurable experiences can actually work.
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