Here we go again with that GD manual

[consiglieri]

Though I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine class, I do try to follow the admonition of the Brethren in preparing individually for class.

This week's lesson (No. 5) is titled, "Born Again," and contains the following quote that for some reason seems to make its way into every LDS discussion of the issue:

[WalkerW]

Clever title.

I think it is the leftovers of Protestant terminology and meaning. The general idea behind McConkie's quote I find to be correct, if one is talking about sanctification or the process of salvation. "Born again" is often connected with "being saved." We don't believe in salvation as an event. That is probably what the deal is.

[consiglieri]

I think it is the leftovers of Protestant terminology and meaning. The general idea behind McConkie's quote I find to be correct, if one is talking about sanctification or the process of salvation. "Born again" is often connected with "being saved." We don't believe in salvation as an event. That is probably what the deal is.

I think there may be some truth in what you say, but this seems to be a fundamental confusion of terminology.

We are born the first time in an instant. One moment we are not born--the next we are born. Being born the first time is not a "process." And being "born again" is no more a process than being born the first time around.

It may be that in perpetuating this idea, we miss out on a lot of important considerations, such as the fact that after we are born, we have to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." Growing up is indeed a process, but being born is not.

This also has implications for the time of our salvation. Granted that nobody is technically "saved" until they can no longer be called out on first, I think a case can be made that salvation consists of our relationship with God and becoming a "son or daughter of Christ." Once we are in that relationship, our salvation is assured unless we do something so serious as to leave the family fold.

That relationship with Christ which constitutes salvation is operative in its totality upon our being "born again."

We are no more Christ's "sons and daughters" when we are born than after we grow up, or at any point along the way.

Just some thoughts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[ERayR]

Though I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine class, I do try to follow the admonition of the Brethren in preparing individually for class.

This week's lesson (No. 5) is titled, "Born Again," and contains the following quote that for some reason seems to make its way into every LDS discussion of the issue:

What I find interesting is that this quote comes after a fistful of scriptural references indicating precisely the opposite, including the people of King Benjamin (who were born again in an instant) and Alma the Younger (who was born again in an instant).

In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

http://lds.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-5-born-again?lang=eng

My take: The decision happens in an instant. The process takes longer.

[mercyngrace]

We are born the first time in an instant. One moment we are not born--the next we are born. Being born the first time is not a "process." And being "born again" is no more a process than being born the first time around.

You have clearly never pushed a baby out, Sir.

[Mortal Man]

You have clearly never pushed a baby out, Sir.

Oh boy, here we go. Good luck consig.

[jadams_4242]

Though I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine class, I do try to follow the admonition of the Brethren in preparing individually for class.

This week's lesson (No. 5) is titled, "Born Again," and contains the following quote that for some reason seems to make its way into every LDS discussion of the issue:

What I find interesting is that this quote comes after a fistful of scriptural references indicating precisely the opposite, including the people of King Benjamin (who were born again in an instant) and Alma the Younger (who was born again in an instant).

In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

http://lds.org/manua...-again?lang=eng

oh its actually very easily understood; When we use the phrase "born again" we are reffering to the "realization" or being given confirmation of the spirit as to something that is true; but the actuall "becoming worthy" is a process...

[russianwolfe]

You have clearly never pushed a baby out, Sir.

Not to even mention waiting for nine months for the event to happen.

Marvin

[russianwolfe]

oh its actually very easily understood; When we use the phrase "born again" we are reffering to the "realization" or being given confirmation of the spirit as to something that is true; but the actuall "becoming worthy" is a process...

And those who have been converted this way can see the truth in what you say. Yes, we can know in an instant that what we have been told is true, but aligning our lives and putting into practice comes with patience and long suffereing.

Marvin

[Lightbearer]

In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

Sure, because it is true. It is interesting that Alma himself does not seem to think this is the standard way a person is born of God...consider the following:

(Alma 5:26-37) "And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now? Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless. And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved! Yea, even wo unto all ye workers of iniquity; repent, repent, for the Lord God hath spoken it! Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you. Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely; Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness, and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire

[Calm]

We are born the first time in an instant. One moment we are not born--the next we are born. Being born the first time is not a "process."

Spoken like a man who has never experienced labour and delivery, let alone pregnancy (being "born" is not an isolated event). One could liken it to death....one could say at one moment one is alive and the next one is dead, but the phrase is "born again"...born here is a verb and not an adjective, imo. If it is a verb and one goes about being born, it is a process that involves a change of state, the change does not really occur in an instant even if one limits the experience to a very specific change of state as different parts of the body go through that change at different times.

[Zakuska]

There is also a train of thought in the scriptures that speaks of being born again-again.

Romans 8:23

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

It seems we don't yet fully become born again and adopted by God until the ressurection. So it appears all the symbolism we go through with baptism is just like the sacrament and a shewing forth of what truely is to come. It seems now the seed is planted in us but is weighting to spring forth.

[erichard]

...In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

...

If a person has been a church member for many years, and is not sure they have really experienced this being "born again", should they just kick over the traces and leave the church? Or should they remain patient and keep preparing for it in hopes that it will eventually happen? Elder McConkie's statement would seem to help them do the second option. I would think that is what he was saying this for.

Btw, I have an issue with the title of this thread. Why call it "that GD manual"? The first time I read it I did not think "Gospel Doctrine Manual". But enough of being a nanny.

Richard

[BCSpace]

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

Church recently updated this "canard" here:

Conversion

The context of the scriptural examples given is with reference to those who are members or disciples of the Church. So ostensibly they have been "born again" yet still are in the process of conversion.

[Rob Osborn]

This too has bothered me in the past- how we do not understand the meaning of it. Being "born again" means to be quickened by the spirit afresh in Christ. It literally means to become alive to something spiritually and yes- it has to happen in an instant. For instance- everytome we recommitt ourselves, put off our natural man and put our faith in Christ we become born again, or become alive again in Christ. Why do we say "born again"? though? Because we first must obviously be dead in something spiritually. In order to be alive again, we say "reborn" or "born again". It meas a new start. If a new start took a long time to happen then it really isn't a start at all. It would be like suddenly seeing the light and having an instant change of heart but the God saying- "no, it's got to be a slow process". But this is not how we are wired to work. We are wired to suddenly realize follies and then either immediatley want change or not immediate change. As we see those follies- those sins we can change and each time we do we are in that sense born again unto righteousness. Becoming righteous in something can happen in an instant, at least in heart. Sure we may fail in some things over and over again but each time we renes and committ ourselves in that thing we become born again unto righteousness.

When we are baptized it symbolizes being reborn. At that time, if we are truly repntant, we becoem born again and have his spirit born again in our hearts. Whereas I do believe that it takes a long time for us to receive the eternallife we are hoping for and that requires entering the path and endurance to the end, what we must realize is that to even enter the gate to the path we must first be born again. This happens at baptism, and consequently, again each time after we sin and repent and recommitt ourselves and partake of his sacrament. Through this we have the promise that his spirit willalways be with us being born again unto the things of righteousness.

[zerinus]

Though I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine class, I do try to follow the admonition of the Brethren in preparing individually for class.

This week's lesson (No. 5) is titled, "Born Again," and contains the following quote that for some reason seems to make its way into every LDS discussion of the issue:

What I find interesting is that this quote comes after a fistful of scriptural references indicating precisely the opposite, including the people of King Benjamin (who were born again in an instant) and Alma the Younger (who was born again in an instant).

In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

http://lds.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-5-born-again?lang=eng

The initial spiritual awakening that constitutes being spiritually

[mmmcounts]

Though I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine class, I do try to follow the admonition of the Brethren in preparing individually for class.

This week's lesson (No. 5) is titled, "Born Again," and contains the following quote that for some reason seems to make its way into every LDS discussion of the issue:

What I find interesting is that this quote comes after a fistful of scriptural references indicating precisely the opposite, including the people of King Benjamin (who were born again in an instant) and Alma the Younger (who was born again in an instant).

In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

http://lds.org/manua...-again?lang=eng

I think it depends on whether or not you believe everyone who's indwelt by the Holy Spirit is properly called a Christian. We all know that everyone starts out without that, but for some people, they believe God's act of transforming someone from a non-Christian to a Christian coincides with the moment at which the Holy Spirit indwells them, and for others, I suppose the Holy Spirit can indwell someone for quite some time while God transforms said person into a Christian far more gradually. And at various points along the way, you could say they've begun the process of becoming a Christian but they haven't finished it yet. That's the only way I can wrap my head around the idea that it doesn't happen in an instant- clearly, there must be some idea of a beginning to the process that is clearly (even if not very far) removed from the end of the process.

[Brenda]

In John 3, verses 3 & 5, I had always thought that Jesus was just repeating himself, but according to the institute manual (pg 39-40), he is not. He is talking about two different births which both involve the Holy Ghost.

In verse 3, he's talking about when a person has not yet received the gift of the HG, yet can receive a testimony through the Spirit, such as when an investigator receives a witness of the Book of Mormon - that testimony is the rebirth that he refers to. At that point a person can SEE the kingdom.

Then in verse 5, he talks about the requirements to ENTER the kingdom, which is baptism (born of water) AND the "mighty change of heart" (born of the Spirit) that we must all eventually experience through the gift of the HG, repentance, the atonement, endurance, etc.

The birth of the Spirit, from verse 5, can come suddenly as in the case of the people who changed after hearing King Benjamin's address. But most of the time, it is a gradual process over time - towards sanctification/purification or IOW, becoming spotless and worthy to enter God's presence. Many of us will not reach that point until the next life, but some have attained it here.

So we have three different births, (four, if you count our mortal birth) all of which we must all experience to receive eternal life:

1. Mortal birth

2. Testimony of the Gospel (Born again)

3. Baptism (Born of water)

4. Sanctification (Born of the Spirit)

[theresa11]

Though I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine class, I do try to follow the admonition of the Brethren in preparing individually for class.

This week's lesson (No. 5) is titled, "Born Again," and contains the following quote that for some reason seems to make its way into every LDS discussion of the issue:

What I find interesting is that this quote comes after a fistful of scriptural references indicating precisely the opposite, including the people of King Benjamin (who were born again in an instant) and Alma the Younger (who was born again in an instant).

In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

http://lds.org/manua...-again?lang=eng

[theresa11]

were prepared a head of time for the gospel , like when the missionaries come to the door ,I was prepared a head of time which made it easy to believe and latter put into practice falling on my bum a few times, but at least I got up. My testimony grew and then came the revaluations.

[Scott Lloyd]

Though I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine class, I do try to follow the admonition of the Brethren in preparing individually for class.

This week's lesson (No. 5) is titled, "Born Again," and contains the following quote that for some reason seems to make its way into every LDS discussion of the issue:

What I find interesting is that this quote comes after a fistful of scriptural references indicating precisely the opposite, including the people of King Benjamin (who were born again in an instant) and Alma the Younger (who was born again in an instant).

In fact, I am aware of absolutely no scriptural reference or story that supports Elder McConkie's declaration that being born again "doesn't happen in an instant."

Any thoughts was to why this canard still circulates?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

http://lds.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-5-born-again?lang=eng

The lesson manual (and Elder McConkie) are absolutely right. What is spoken of alternately as being born again, spiritual rebirth and being spiritually born of God is the equivalent of conversion. Conversion is a process, not an event; it can occur in degrees. Though miraculous and life-changing, it most often does not occur spontaneously and dramatically, but rather, quietly and over process of time. And it can wax and wane. I made quite a point of teaching these ideas yesterday in my gospel doctrine class, so if the manual and Elder McConkie are off-base, then I suppose I am too. If they are charged with advancing a "canard" ("a false, especially malicious, report that has been fabricated with the intention of doing harm"

[Rob Osborn]

The lesson manual (and Elder McConkie) are absolutely right. What is spoken of alternately as being born again, spiritual rebirth and being spiritually born of God is the equivalent of conversion. Conversion is a process, not an event; it can occur in degrees. Though miraculous and life-changing, it most often does not occur spontaneously and dramatically, but rather, quietly and over process of time. And it can wax and wane. I made quite a point of teaching these ideas yesterday in my gospel doctrine class, so if the manual and Elder McConkie are off-base, then I suppose I am too.

The imagery of re-birth is meant to convey the notion of change, renewal, newness of life, etc. The notion that that it must always happen instantaneously and dramatically is an instance of stretching an analogy beyond its intended meaning. Much of the sectarian world errs in that way; let us not do likewise.

I agree and also do not agree. I look at rebirth as happening in a short amount of time perhaps even in an instant. Baptism, which signifies the event of rebirth happens in an instant basically. So does the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. Baptism is the ordinance of that rebirth and conversion to Christ. It is at that time are sins are forgiven us- in an instant. Of course we are going to sin and learn how to overcome from that point onwards, becoming more perfect everyday, having to frequently repent and such, but, the covenant of baptism is the instant of the rebirth. We do not look at newly converted saints as not being spiritually reborn but actually as being spiritually reborn. Being not spiritually reborn means to still be in ones sins. If this be the case then baptism which follows true repentance means nothing! After all- it is through the ordinance of baptism that our sins are washed away in Christ and we become new creatures. We do not view souls just having been baptized as still being dead in sin and trespasses but alive in Christ- alive to the things of righteousness. This is what it means to be reborn of God- being baptized in his name, taking upon Christ's name- being born of the water (baptism) and of the spirit (gift of the HG).

From James E Faust-

All of us need to be born spiritually, from 8 to 80

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree and also do not agree. I look at rebirth as happening in a short amount of time perhaps even in an instant. Baptism, which signifies the event of rebirth happens in an instant basically. So does the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. Baptism is the ordinance of that rebirth and conversion to Christ. It is at that time are sins are forgiven us- in an instant. Of course we are going to sin and learn how to overcome from that point onwards, becoming more perfect everyday, having to frequently repent and such, but, the covenant of baptism is the instant of the rebirth. We do not look at newly converted saints as not being spiritually reborn but actually as being spiritually reborn. Being not spiritually reborn means to still be in ones sins. If this be the case then baptism which follows true repentance means nothing! After all- it is through the ordinance of baptism that our sins are washed away in Christ and we become new creatures. We do not view souls just having been baptized as still being dead in sin and trespasses but alive in Christ- alive to the things of righteousness. This is what it means to be reborn of God- being baptized in his name, taking upon Christ's name- being born of the water (baptism) and of the spirit (gift of the HG).

If one regards spiritual rebirth

[Calm]

It is mistaken to consider the moment of baptism or confirmation as being necessarily the completion of conversion when that so often is not the case.

Why would we need to continually retake the Sacrament if conversion was complete? The weekly Sacrament speaks to rebirth/conversion as being a process in my mind.

[Rob Osborn]

If one regards spiritual rebirth