BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Alma 34:31Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 This is where the whole converstaion is oft confused because we are speaking of two different yet similar things. One is the process of entering into the way- "the path", and the other is reaching the destination at the end of the path. Entering the path leading back to God's presence is the preparatory gospel- repentance, baptism, the gift of the HG. This is the rebirth= being spiritually reborn. This is how one enters the path. Once on that path, once we are begotten of God we still must endure to the end. This is the process of perfection and not the process of rebirth. First we are born back into the light of the gospel and it's saving power and from there we grow in that light. This is why I believe we have misunderstandings on the matter. Rebirth itself is not the definition of achieveing absolute perfection but merely the process in the which we become once again enlightened by God's word in order to begin achieving perfection. Christ spoke that man must be born of th ewater and of the spirit. This means to be baptized by water and recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is when we become reborn- at that moment. From there we enter the path and are thus on the path leading to God's glory (perfection).I agree that this may be a matter of confusion of terms.But when the scriptures speak of being "born again" or a mighty change of heart, or being spiritually born of God or spiritual rebirth (i.e. conversion), what is clearly communicated to me goes beyond the physical act of baptism and confirmation.This has already been pointed out on this thread, but in Alma's address in which he asked the people if they had been spiritually born of God, he wasn't speaking primarily to neophytes or people who had recently joined the church.Alma 5:2 says, "And these are the words which he spake to the people in the church which was established in the city of Zarahemla, according to his own record."Later verses confirm that he was speaking to seasoned members of the church, people like you and I, people like the average gospel doctrine class attendee:And now behold I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to the church, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance .... (verse 6)And now behold I ask of you my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in y our countenances? Have ye experienced this might change in your hearts?(verse 14)If this spiritual rebirth is something that Alma would encourage among his "brethren of the church," that says to me that spiritual rebirth is an ongoing process, that all are candidates for conversion, even those who have been members of the Church for many years.At least that's my take. And I don't cop to perpetrating a "canard" for expressing it.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Alma 34:31Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.It can take place immediately. Doesn't say it happens in every instance. Or that it is complete immediately.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 It can take place immediately. Doesn't say it happens in every instance. Or that it is complete immediately.I believe, as the scripture says, you are "born again" or "saved" immediately... the rest is maintenance. Poor analogy following... If you buy a new car, but never get the oil changed, new spark plugs, etc... the car will break down and be worthless, but that doesn't mean the car was never new. If you neglect the fellowship of the Saints, personal scripture study, prayers, acts of charity, etc... your salvation breaks down, but that doesn't mean you weren't saved from the moment you first accepted Jesus and turned your life over to Him.
bluebell Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I believe, as the scripture says, you are "born again" or "saved" immediately... the rest is maintenance. Poor analogy following... If you buy a new car, but never get the oil changed, new spark plugs, etc... the car will break down and be worthless, but that doesn't mean the car was never new. If you neglect the fellowship of the Saints, personal scripture study, prayers, acts of charity, etc... your salvation breaks down, but that doesn't mean you weren't saved from the moment you first accepted Jesus and turned your life over to Him.It seems though that being 'born again' and 'being saved' are two different things.'Being saved' means being justified and like you said, i also believe that happens in an instant. But in my understanding, being 'born again' or becoming a new creature, is being sanctified-the process of becoming holy-and i don't believe that happens in an instant.Maybe my way of looking at it is unique though.
Rob Osborn Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 16 And behold, whosoever believeth on my words, them will I visit with the manifestation of my Spirit; and they shall be born of me, even of water and of the Spirit
Rob Osborn Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 One other thing- I searched on LDS.org on this matter and it seems quite apparent that the opinions are varried by different apostles and prophets. Everything from it being a lifelong process to it being immediate at baptism. The part that intrigues me though is why is it so varried when the scriptures seem so clear? I have found that this is the case on a number of subjects taught by the church. Other churches are no different either. Most churches have doctrines that teach things without any real clear difinitive truth. To me it shows both the limits to mans understanding and how some opinions are favored over others regardless of having a source for the ultimate truth. Like was brought up in the OP, it does seem strange that the scriptures validates an immediate rebirth and yet that doesn't somehow stand as the official position once again leaving us to wonder why.
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