Vex Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 From Nemelka's own description of events there are few logical fallacy's that present themselves, one such instance is the following:on page 585 (for some reason the PDF will not allow me to copy it) he states in effect that He considers Joseph a Prophet of God (point in fact, declaring his heavenly messenger is Joseph Resurrected). If this is to be the case, what are we to learn when we read in the Doctrine and Covenants about a similar situation (see D&C 28:2-3, concerning Revelations from Hiram Page)?He claims to be following the commandments of God through JS; yet his translations fly in the face of revelations received from JS pointing to the order from which God has established.
CV75 Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 I get the exact same reaction in my inner self when I read both of themAre you are asking that we accept that you are praying with real intent? If you are, then you should receive confirmation of the truthfulness of only one or the other book. If you are not, then your confirmation can certainly be of both books. If you read into this post an implication that you are not praying with real intent, or become offended, then you need to develop some real intent. If you read into this post an implication that you are praying with real intent, or become satisfied, then you need to develop some real intent. This is because on one hand, a witness from the Holy Spirit puts you above being offended by a perceived challenge to your intent because what He gave you is far more valuable than defending your intent. On the other hand, a witness from the Holy Spirit creates an appreciation and humility that prevents a perceived acknowledgment of or credit for your pure intent. If you are not asking that we accept that you are praying with real intent, and / or read no implication in this post that you are praying or not praying with real intent, then you need to develop some real intent, because the only way you could be praying with real intent is to obtain an answer on one or the other book.
CA Steve Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 And on what date did Joseph Smith receive Priestly Authority to translate the BoM?Maybe he was born with it.D&C 86:8-9
Fifth Columnist Posted January 28, 2011 Author Posted January 28, 2011 I am puzzled by the responses stating that priesthood authority somehow solves the problem. I pointed this out once before, but why would the Holy Ghost testify of something being taught by someone who does not have the proper Priesthood authority? Furthermore, how can one's priesthood authority be given greater weight than the Holy Ghost since apologists repeatedly teach us that we must use the Holy Ghost to determine whether those having Priesthood authority are expressing gospel truth, fallible opinions, or leading us astray. http://www.mormontim...e-faith-Part-10
Fifth Columnist Posted January 28, 2011 Author Posted January 28, 2011 Since the LDS church is God's church . . . (snip)How do we know the LDS Church is God's Church? Through the Holy Ghost? The same experience Ida Smith had?
CV75 Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 How do we know the LDS Church is God's Church? Through the Holy Ghost? The same experience Ida Smith had?I
Deborah Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 I pointed this out once before, but why would the Holy Ghost testify of something being taught by someone who does not have the proper Priesthood authority? It doesn't. That's the point.
Fifth Columnist Posted January 28, 2011 Author Posted January 28, 2011 It doesn't. That's the point.So Ida Smith can experience the exact same Holy Ghost type experience that Mormons have reading the Book of Mormon, but we can be confident that Ida's experience is not really from the Holy Ghost because . . . why?
Deborah Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 So Ida Smith can experience the exact same Holy Ghost type experience that Mormons have reading the Book of Mormon, but we can be confident that Ida's experience is not really from the Holy Ghost because . . . why?You are still mistaking her experience as the "exact" same type when some of us have already told you it wasn't just by reading it.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 You are still mistaking her experience as the "exact" same type when some of us have already told you it wasn't just by reading it.Reading her story, the only thing she said was "It was like a bolt of lightining, it suddenly all made sense to me". I don't even remember her stating that "The HG bore a witness to her it was true". Perhaps I missed that part. I did only skim it.I have not heard that language when disucssing spirutual experiances. THere are also other things that make me think it is different.
Fifth Columnist Posted January 28, 2011 Author Posted January 28, 2011 You are still mistaking her experience as the "exact" same type when some of us have already told you it wasn't just by reading it.It wasn't the exact same type as your particular experience or any Mormon spiritual experience? I can't disagree with the former, but I already provided a cite to an article on lds.org that it is very similar to other Mormon's experiences.
CQUIRK Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 No, it sounds like a delusional and senile old woman that obviously is loony-tunes and so psychologically unhinged that she would see Hell as Heaven. Nemelka's background and reputation is so bad and conspicuous, that for someone to take him 100% at his word- well, the only sad thing that I feel about her is just how she's going to get judged in the afterlife. I said that in the post of this subject in the News forum and stand by it here. But to expand, I also believe that people like Ida and others whom have mental, psychological, or even physical issues that alter their way of thinking are either mentally weak, or psychologically unbalanced (or both) to the point that they cannot discern what is of the Holy Ghost or what are those false feelings of peace and joy brought on by the opposite.I notice a lot of those that join groups like 'Heaven's Gate', 'Strong City', or other such groups are always those with personal and/or mental issues that make them susceptible to mind control and eventual blind loyalty to such people or groups, no matter how much they are exposed as frauds, liars, or con men- like Nemelka, or worse.Ida is just like such people- no matter how good her intentions or even her former integrity may be- she was still feeble minded and foolish enough to take Nemelka's lies as truth and even think she's feeling the Holy Ghost when in fact she is not.After all, there will be many false prophets in the Latter days, as stated by the scriptures, and those that have good intentions and are sincere in their own character will still be lead astray by such, due to the weaknesses of their hearts and minds, like Ida.And in the end, God will judge them and they will pay for it.Sorry Fifth Columnist, but to think that this woman did experience the Holy Ghost when she became duped by Nememlka is akin to taking Wayne Bent AKA Michael Travessor at his word when he says he is the 'Messiah'.
sunstoned Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 It's not an issue of whether the sealed portion is false. The issue is this guy is a false prophet with no Priesthood authority to have received the sealed portion or to translate it.It really just comes down to "feelings". That is all you have, and that is all Ida Smith has. Both of you seem very sincere, and it is not my place to judge. However, her testimony is as strong as any that I have heard in my Ward or on this board. People can talk about Priesthood authority and Prophets, but really it just comes down to "feelings". "I know _____ is true because I have a spiritual (feelings) witness". In my journey to try to figure all of this out, I have spoken to many religious people. Depending on who I talk to, there seems to be many different, and often times conflicting spiritual witnesses. I have spoken to Bishops, Stake Presidents, Fundamental LDS in Manti, Colorado City, and Mona, Utah. I have also had conversations with Catholics, Church of Christ, and many others. They are all sincere, and often times have had amazing super natural spiritual experiences. LDS have no corner on spiritual experiences. I have heard some truly heartfelt and strong testimonies from people who are not LDS. It is not my place or anyone's place to discount these experiences.Currently, my thinking is that there is some higher power, and that what we call "spiritual" is our communication with this power(God?). Organized religions are just men's attempt to try and explain this communication. We wrap rules and dogma around this, and it is unnecessary. This is why close examination of any religion or dogma turns up inconsistencies and conflicts.
stYro Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 I'll give Ida Smith full credit for this: Apparently she is doing the best she can to follow the brightest light that she can perceive. Even if she's mistaken, if she continues to follow the brightest light she perceives, she'll eventually get it all right. My own investigation into the "sealed portion" led me to a different conclusion from hers, but I'm still a student as well so I could be the one who's mistaken.Even if Ida isn't totally sincere, and there's some self-deception and/or ego tripping going on (and which of us doesn't have an ego attachment to our beliefs?), at least she's getting out there and boldly mixing it up. Any errors she's engaged in will show themselves to her sooner or later, and she may well come out of it all wiser than the rest of us for having walked more paths than we have. Looking back on my own journey, there are a few things I once felt the Spirit about that I no longer do, and a few things I previously did not feel the Spirit about but that light up for me now. Maybe the lessons I'm supposed to be working on have changed as I've (hopefully) progressed a little bit.stYro
Deborah Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 It really just comes down to "feelings". This is a fallacy. It is never just feelings. In the first place when the Holy Ghost influences someone it brings intelligence, or light and knowledge. Study is also involved and the mind and heart must be in sync. Studying something like Nemelka's claims anyone who uses their mind would have to question why a person with no authority in the church would be entitled to such a revelation for the church when we know that only the Prophet who stands at the head of the church can do this. The Holy Ghost would not contradict the natural order which God has established. Therefore if one is investigating this they are already on the wrong track and if they get a "good feeling" it's not light and knowledge but something else that satisfies their own need.
CQUIRK Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 My own investigation into the "sealed portion" led me to a different conclusion from hers, but I'm still a student as well so I could be the one who's mistaken.Only problem is this is coming from a man that has a criminal record and shady background, made contradictory claims about this "sealed book" and what exactly he believes, and of course, uses vulgar language in his dialog. Unlike Joseph Smith- this man bears rotten fruit, therefore I will NOT believe ANYTHING coming from Nemelka, no matter how 'good' it sounds, only a gullible simpleton would believe this man walks on water and speaks the truth through this BS book he created.Unfortunately, the world is full of people stupid and/or gullible enough to believe him.
stYro Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 Only problem is this is coming from a man that has a criminal record and shady background, made contradictory claims about this "sealed book" and what exactly he believes, and of course, uses vulgar language in his dialog. Joseph Smith had a criminal record, a shady background, gave contradictory accounts of some of his experiences, and was probably accused of more wrongdoing by his detractors and former friends than Nemelka has been. stYro
Deborah Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 Joseph Smith had a criminal record, a shady background, gave contradictory accounts of some of his experiences, and was probably accused of more wrongdoing by his detractors and former friends than Nemelka has been. I do believe he was acquitted of every criminal wrong-doing of every trumped up charge. What contradictory accounts? He may have tempered remarks for audience and venue but his accounts have been consistent. Interesting how those who knew him best thought him the man of highest integrity and most generous heart.
CQUIRK Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 Joseph Smith had a criminal record, a shady background, gave contradictory accounts of some of his experiences, and was probably accused of more wrongdoing by his detractors and former friends than Nemelka has been. stYroDeborah pretty much summed up the rebuttal to your response, Plus Nemelka is actually guilty of his alleged crimes, unlike Joseph, so you still lose in your argument.Nemelka is more akin to Charles Mansion then he is to Joseph Smith.
Fifth Columnist Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 Ida is just like such people- no matter how good her intentions or even her former integrity may be- she was still feeble minded and foolish enough to take Nemelka's lies as truth and even think she's feeling the Holy Ghost when in fact she is not.Ida's father was the patriarch of the Church. I think it is reasonable to believe that she was taught how to feel and recognize the influence of the Holy Ghost. I think the burden is on you to show how her Holy Ghost experience is any different than countless Mormons'.Sorry Fifth Columnist, but to think that this woman did experience the Holy Ghost when she became duped by Nememlka is akin to taking Wayne Bent AKA Michael Travessor at his word when he says he is the 'Messiah'.That makes no sense. Ida described having a Holy Ghost experience that is very similar to many Mormons' experience. I can take her at her word (that she had a powerful experience while reading the Sealed Portion) without taking Wayne Bent at his word. Besides, Wayne Bent's claim to be the Messiah is very different than Ida's claim to have received a burning in her bosom.I'm glad you brought Wayne Bent up. I have watched the Wayne Bent documentaries on NatGeo and the comparison you should be making is whether Mormons' Holy Ghost experiences are similar to those of Wayne Bent's followers. His followers also had profound spiritual experiences while lying naked with him (this was from a teenage girl) or trying to decide to enter a polyandrous marriage with him. Further evidence that the spiritual experience is highly unreliable at best.
Fifth Columnist Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 This is a fallacy. It is never just feelings. In the first place when the Holy Ghost influences someone it brings intelligence, or light and knowledge. Study is also involved and the mind and heart must be in sync.And what exactly is "intelligence, light, or knowledge?" I think Ida would clearly qualify under the "knowledge" rubric since she said herself that she learned a great deal as she read the Sealed Portion and wept (listen to her interview at the link I provided). I also think she studied it since she actually read the Sealed Portion, which is more than most people can claim.I still can't see the difference.By the way, do you hyper-parse the spiritual experiences expressed on fast Sunday to see if they satisfy these standards? Does the experience I linked to in the Ensign satisfy your standards? If so, how is it materially different than Ida's? The Holy Ghost would not contradict the natural order which God has established. Therefore if one is investigating this they are already on the wrong track and if they get a "good feeling" it's not light and knowledge but something else that satisfies their own need.If I ever start a Church, I think I would use this logic too. Of course, it would probably be better if God simply prevented people from having spiritual experiences that contradicts the leaders.
Deborah Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I also think she studied it since she actually read the Sealed Portion, which is more than most people can claim.It doesn't matter what she felt when she read this. The fact is the Sealed Portion would not be revealed in such a manner and furthermore it would be sustained by members of the church as part of the canon. Of course, it would probably be better if God simply prevented people from having spiritual experiences that contradicts the leaders.When those so called spiritual experiences are contrary to the order God has established then they are not from the Holy Ghost. It is as simple as that. They are from another spirit and whether you understand the difference or not is irrelevant.
Fifth Columnist Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 Only problem is this is coming from a man that has a criminal record and shady background, made contradictory claims about this "sealed book" and what exactly he believes, and of course, uses vulgar language in his dialog. Unlike Joseph Smith- this man bears rotten fruit, therefore I will NOT believe ANYTHING coming from Nemelka, no matter how 'good' it sounds, only a gullible simpleton would believe this man walks on water and speaks the truth through this BS book he created.It is interesting that you apply a character test to the messenger before even considering relying on the Holy Ghost to determine the truth of what the person says. Why would you need to do that if the Holy Ghost is a reliable indicator of truth? Simply drop the character test and commit to be led by the Holy Ghost.Interestingly, my wife often argues that I should not worry about Joseph Smith's character (I think I view it differently than you do) and simply rely on the Spirit. Does that only work for Joseph Smith, but not Nemelka?
Fifth Columnist Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 It doesn't matter what she felt when she read this.No it does matter. She was taught that certain experiences mean something is true. She is simply applying what she was taught.Also, if Church leaders have to tell everyone to ignore Holy Ghost experiences that testify of things they don't like then isn't that a tacit admission that they are unreliable?When those so called spiritual experiences are contrary to the order God has established then they are not from the Holy Ghost. It is as simple as that. They are from another spirit and whether you understand the difference or not is irrelevant.How does one know that this is "the order God has established?" Answer: by the power of the Holy Ghost. So Ida has relied on the same authority to determine that the Sealed Portion is true that you have relied on to determine that it is "contrary to the order God has established." That is a good illustration of the problem with conflicting experiences.
Vex Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I notice no one has commented on the logical fallacy I have presented concerning this matter. Is it really that far below one's desire for discussion:Post #26
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