Ida Smith, Chris Nemelka, and Spiritual Witnesses of Truth

[Deborah]

Nor have I seen any of Joseph's successors bring forth mysteries or revelations even remotely approaching what he did.

Nor did anything of such significance come forth from Moses until the coming of Christ. The Law of Moses was in place until Christ came to fulfill it. Why do you think there has to always be something new for someone to be called of God. There is no precedent for that in scripture.

I just read in the Joseph Smith papers this account in the Kirtland Temple during a solemn assembly: "the brethern continued exhorting, prophesying and speaking in tongues until 5 o'clock in the moring--the Saviour made his appearance to some, while angels ministered to others...."

JS had taught the twelve apostles that "all who are prepared and are sufficiently pure to abide the presence of the Saviour will see him in the solem assembly." (p. 216 v. 1). There is no reason to think this doesn't apply to today's apostles and the fact that they don't brag about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

[stYro]

Nor did anything of such significance come forth from Moses until the coming of Christ. The Law of Moses was in place until Christ came to fulfill it. Why do you think there has to always be something new for someone to be called of God. There is no precedent for that in scripture.

I just read in the Joseph Smith papers this account in the Kirtland Temple during a solemn assembly: "the brethern continued exhorting, prophesying and speaking in tongues until 5 o'clock in the moring--the Saviour made his appearance to some, while angels ministered to others...."

JS had taught the twelve apostles that "all who are prepared and are sufficiently pure to abide the presence of the Saviour will see him in the solem assembly." (p. 216 v. 1). There is no reason to think this doesn't apply to today's apostles and the fact that they don't brag about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Actually a lot did come forth between the time of Moses and the coming of Christ. You're leaving out most of the Old Testament and Book of Mormon.

Maybe the LDS apostles do have extraordinary personal spiritual experiences. So do lots of other people. That's not the same thing as having the keys of the mysteries and revelations that Joseph Smith had.

Now I will concede that revelations aren't necessary in order for someone to be called of God. But they are necessary for prophets, for seers, and for revelators. Otherwise, those words are just empty titles.

You bring up the Kirkland Temple experience. I am not aware of anything like that happening since Joseph Smith, nor indeed in all of American religous history. The light from heaven shining down on the temple was recorded in the local newspaper, which mistakenly reported that the Temple had caught fire and burned! In my opinion, the contrast between the Kirkland Temple dedication and the Nauvoo Temple dedication (or any subsequent one for that matter) is worth pondering.

stYro

[Vex]

Actually a lot did come forth between the time of Moses and the coming of Christ. You're leaving out most of the Old Testament and Book of Mormon.

I think (though I may be putting words into her mouth) that she was inferring that the law of Moses was the governing principles given to the people prior to Christ's mortal ministry.

Maybe the LDS apostles do have extraordinary personal spiritual experiences. So do lots of other people. That's not the same thing as having the keys of the mysteries and revelations that Joseph Smith had.

I think something you're ruling out (whether on purpose or not) is that they do not expand the mystery's to the general population as we already have a hard enough time with just the basic principles. I'm sure when we are ready for more mysteries we have a firmer grasp of the basics. Which reminds me of the adage of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Now I will concede that revelations aren't necessary in order for someone to be called of God. But they are necessary for prophets, for seers, and for revelators. Otherwise, those words are just empty titles.

I remember specifically certain times that those titles were proved in GC. Though, that was for me and my circumstance, it might not be the same for others.

You bring up the Kirkland Temple experience. I am not aware of anything like that happening since Joseph Smith, nor indeed in all of American religous history. The light from heaven shining down on the temple was recorded in the local newspaper, which mistakenly reported that the Temple had caught fire and burned! In my opinion, the contrast between the Kirkland Temple dedication and the Nauvoo Temple dedication (or any subsequent one for that matter) is worth pondering.

stYro

I'm a bit tired; but I remember specific visions occurring with prophets after the martyrdom of Joseph. Specifically I'm thinking of the ones concerning the founding fathers and their request for their work to be done. Unless I'm much mistaken, the even is recorded, but not contained within the Doctrine and Covenants. There also are other events, similar in nature to the previous event, that are recorded but not contained within the D&C. I do not believe that attempting to draw a conclusion while ignoring such things would yield the best result.

[stYro]

I think something you're ruling out (whether on purpose or not) is that they do not expand the mystery's to the general population as we already have a hard enough time with just the basic principles. I'm sure when we are ready for more mysteries we have a firmer grasp of the basics.

I don't know how to quote and reply multiple times in the same post, so forgive me for spreading my replies over a couple of posts.

Complete mastery of the basics is not necessary for greater knowledge to be given. Joseph Smith didn't wait for it. In school, you don't have to get an "A" in Algebra One before you are qualified to take Algebra Two. How many of those at the Kirkland Temple dedication who experienced such amazing things were getting all the "basics" right? I bet not very many, if any. Joseph didn't seem to care.

Teaching the same old basic things over and over and over again, as the church does, is like the farmer who plows his field over and over and over again... and never actually plants a crop! In fact that is the metaphor Isaiah used.

stYro

[stYro]

I remember specific visions occurring with prophets after the martyrdom of Joseph. Specifically I'm thinking of the ones concerning the founding fathers and their request for their work to be done. Unless I'm much mistaken, the even[t] is recorded, but not contained within the Doctrine and Covenants. There also are other events, similar in nature to the previous event, that are recorded but not contained within the D&C. I do not believe that attempting to draw a conclusion while ignoring such things would yield the best result.

Visitations by dead people requesting that their temple work be done are not evidence that the person visited is a prophet, seer, or revelator. I have stories like that in my family.

If we're going to include great events or teachings that didn't make it into the scriptures, I still believe Joseph Smith out-produced all of his successors combined many times over.

If these men are being sustained twice a year using the job title "prophet, seer, and revelator", where's the prophecy? What have they seen? What have they revealed? Or are we supposed to believe that they have prophecied, seen, and revealed in secret? Do they even claim that that's what they do? Or do members of the church freely and eagerly attribute secret prophecying, secret seering, and secret revelating to them because the alternative is too unthinkable?

stYro

[LDS Guy 1986]

So far I have not seen the LDS church break in pieces and consume any nations or kingdoms. let alone all of them, so I don't think that scripture applies.

So what do you call the over 2,900 stakes of the LDS Church in over 130 nations in the world?

Seems like Church has broken into many pieces and is consuming the world at a ever increasing rate! To each there own but the LDS Church perfectly fits into the prophesy. As stated earlier I am almost 100% percent sure that the D&C covers the subject as well but it is a decent size book so I will post that when I find it. I used the Gospel Principals book for Daniel's prophecy about the LDS Chruch and I will keep searching for the revelation from Christ regarding this as well.

We are the only Church to of build a temple behind the Iron Curtain, we are the only Church that ever received permission to send American Missionaries into a Soviet Nation! We have missionaries in almost every nation around the world, and the ones we are not in we are currently working diligently with there governments to obtain permission to send missionaries!

[Calm]

I don't know how to quote and reply multiple times in the same post, so forgive me for spreading my replies over a couple of posts.

Use the reply button to get the whole post to be responded to in your reply box, then divide into the sections you want by selecting, deleting anything not to be included, and then click on the quote bubble button (between the envelope and the < > above the reply box). Quote tags will appear at the beginning and end of the sections, just write your replies between them.

[Vex]

Visitations by dead people requesting that their temple work be done are not evidence that the person visited is a prophet, seer, or revelator. I have stories like that in my family.

And so do prophets in the old testament. The point it moot as there are other stories of prophets seeing the savior.

If we're going to include great events or teachings that didn't make it into the scriptures, I still believe Joseph Smith out-produced all of his successors combined many times over.

As he should considering he was the prophet of the restoration. He had to do most the work. He had to ensure that the foundation was secure in Christ and the Apostles. It's just how it rolls.

If these men are being sustained twice a year using the job title "prophet, seer, and revelator", where's the prophecy?

The spirit of prophecy is to have a testimony of Jesus Christ. I think they fulfill that manufactured obligation of your make quite easily.

What have they seen?

Probably many things. Whether they choose to share them with the general public or members of the Church outside or inside of a solemn assembly is their prerogative.

What have they revealed?

To the general membership? They have expanded the doctrine of Christs ministry to those in prison. They have revealed the reality of individuals in the here after. The list goes on and on. Whether they compare to JS or not is irrelevant.

Or are we supposed to believe that they have prophecied, seen, and revealed in secret?

Are we supposed to believe all the things the ancient apostles did are contained within the Gospels and Epistles? Your question is presupposing nefarious reasons and means.

Do they even claim that that's what they do?

Receive revelation, prophecy, and so forth? Yes. They do claim, and do have works to accompany those claims. For instance off the top of my Head; the revelation President Hinkley received concerning temple worship and expansion. Exhorting membership to pay their tithing during times of hardship. Expansion of missionary work into foreign lands. The list goes on and on.

Or do members of the church freely and eagerly attribute secret prophecying, secret seering, and secret revelating to them because the alternative is too unthinkable?

This is begging the question and presupposes that the individuals are nefarious to begin with. You will always come to one conclusion if those are your conditions.

[Deborah]

Complete mastery of the basics is not necessary for greater knowledge to be given. Joseph Smith didn't wait for it.

Joseph Smith also wanted every person to be a prophet and receive his own revelation. The Prophet restored all that once was; it's up to us as individuals to study and seek more. The church is a church of many people, all at different levels of understanding. What is taught is taught for the masses. That doesn't preclude any individual from studying, praying and asking the questions that will bring more light and knowledge as one is ready.

[Deborah]

Actually a lot did come forth between the time of Moses and the coming of Christ.

Like what. Please explain what new significant laws came forth. Of course there were great prophets, but what did the preach? They called the people to repentance and reminded them of the commandments already given and prophesied of Christ, which every prophet had done. Now that the lost truths have been restored what do the prophets preach? They call the people to repentance, remind them of the laws and commandments already given and teach of Christ who will come again.

[Pahoran]

Bump for Hughes. You have two outstanding calls for references before you.

When, where and by whom was it "stated that anyone who looked at them [i.e. the plates] would die?"

When, where and by whom were "the claimed witnesses threatened with ex-communication if they didn't sign?"

As a Christian[TM] you of course would never stoop to bearing false witness against your neighbours, even if they are only Mormons(ugh!) So naturally you will do your best to make sure that the truth about these allegations comes out.

Won't you?

Regards,

Pahoran

[beth]

BETH, on 09 February 2011 - 10:38 AM, said:

Again, the point isn't whether or not there were horses then, but merely that it's a valid anachronism to the BofM. Nemelka's work, similarly cannot be dismissed for comparable anachronisms in his scripture.

VEX:

Let's set this straight; the point I was making is that the science is still on going:

From 2009:

http://www.horsetalk...09/12/094.shtml

Puts the extinction date between 7000 and 10500 years, this further indicates that the extinction date is moving closer and closer to the time of the book of mormon.

From 2010:

http://www.horsetalk...ction-176.shtml

The date keeps getting pushed closer and closer:

Quote

North America remained home to Equus species for most of the next 2.5 million years until they died out. On latest evidence, that was just 7600 years ago.

That means they are getting to about 5600 BCE, almost 5000 years longer than what you have claimed and posted. If this doesn't drive home the point that the debate (yes, it's a debate in the science circles) that the extinction date is as of yet undetermined and quite possibly even longer still I'm not sure what will.

Your point is moot.

BETH:

No, my point is totally valid. I have said that there are anachronisms in the BofM that people debate about and offer various theories to explain such as the horse. Nemelka

[stYro]

Use the reply button to get the whole post to be responded to in your reply box, then divide into the sections you want by selecting, deleting anything not to be included,

Okay

and then click on the quote bubble button (between the envelope and the < > above the reply box).

Like this?

Quote tags will appear at the beginning and end of the sections, just write your replies between them.

Got it - thank you very much!

[Calm]

Okay

Like this?

Got it - thank you very much!

I knew you could.

[stYro]

And so do prophets in the old testament. The point it moot as there are other stories of prophets seeing the savior.

And there are stories of other people seeing the savior.

As he should considering he was the prophet of the restoration. He had to do most the work. He had to ensure that the foundation was secure in Christ and the Apostles. It's just how it rolls.

I've heard similar arguments made as to why revelation ceased after the days of the original twelve apostles.

The spirit of prophecy is to have a testimony of Jesus Christ. I think they fulfill that manufactured obligation of your make quite easily.

Maybe we are using different definitions here, but I do not consider "having a testimony of Jesus" to be the same thing as "being a prophet." And, what about "seer" and "revelator"?

Whether they choose to share them with the general public or members of the Church outside or inside of a solemn assembly is their prerogative.

I think it's surprising that the Lord had so much to say that he wanted his people to hear for 20 years, and so little to say that he wanted them to hear for the next 166.

To the general membership? They have expanded the doctrine of Christs ministry to those in prison. They have revealed the reality of individuals in the here after. The list goes on and on. Whether they compare to JS or not is irrelevant.

It is only relevant if they claim to have the same power and authority that Joseph Smith did. By their fruits ye shall know them. I think the list you refer to is pitifully short for the combined contribution of fifteen "prophets, seers, and revelators".

Are we supposed to believe all the things the ancient apostles did are contained within the Gospels and Epistles? Your question is presupposing nefarious reasons and means.

Ease up on them hammers there, cowboy. This is what I mean: "Whether they choose to share them with the general public or members of the Church outside or inside of a solemn assembly is their perogative." That is the perception that has been fostered.

Receive revelation, prophecy, and so forth? Yes. They do claim, and do have works to accompany those claims. For instance off the top of my Head; the revelation President Hinkley received concerning temple worship and expansion. Exhorting membership to pay their tithing during times of hardship. Expansion of missionary work into foreign lands. The list goes on and on.

The list may go on and on, but these are administrative decisions. You or I could have made them.

This is begging the question and presupposes that the individuals are nefarious to begin with. You will always come to one conclusion if those are your conditions.

"Prophet, seer, and revelator" is an extraordinary claim. I don't demand proof, but do expect to see substantial evidence, if it exists. Joseph Smith certainly provided it in his day, but nobody since him has come close.

Imagine you were a member of the early Christian church roughly sixteen decades after the death of the Apostles. Would you have noticed that all is not well in Zion?

That being said, I want to acknowledge that the leadership of the LDS church is and has been made up of unusually sincere and honest men who at least are not making stuff up and putting it in God's mouth. It's still the best church I know of today.

stYro

[stYro]

So what do you call the over 2,900 stakes of the LDS Church in over 130 nations in the world?

Seems like Church has broken into many pieces and is consuming the world at a ever increasing rate! To each there own but the LDS Church perfectly fits into the prophesy. As stated earlier I am almost 100% percent sure that the D&C covers the subject as well but it is a decent size book so I will post that when I find it. I used the Gospel Principals book for Daniel's prophecy about the LDS Chruch and I will keep searching for the revelation from Christ regarding this as well.

We are the only Church to of build a temple behind the Iron Curtain, we are the only Church that ever received permission to send American Missionaries into a Soviet Nation! We have missionaries in almost every nation around the world, and the ones we are not in we are currently working diligently with there governments to obtain permission to send missionaries!

The scripture you quoted in Daniel reads: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

From the text, it is "these kingdoms" that shall be broken and consumed, and this by the kingdom that God sets up "which shall never be destroyed". I do not see the LDS church breaking and consuming any "kingdoms", which would be in fulfillment of this prophecy.

stYro

[Hughes]

Bump for Hughes. You have two outstanding calls for references before you.

When, where and by whom was it "stated that anyone who looked at them [i.e. the plates] would die?"

When, where and by whom were "the claimed witnesses threatened with ex-communication if they didn't sign?"

As a Christian[TM] you of course would never stoop to bearing false witness against your neighbours, even if they are only Mormons(ugh!) So naturally you will do your best to make sure that the truth about these allegations comes out.

Won't you?

Regards,

Pahoran

It is a signed affidavit sworn out by Peter Ingersall before Judge Baldwin of Wayne County Court in New York in December, 1833. He recounts what Joseph told him:

1. Mormonism and the Mormons: a historical view of the rise and progress of the sect self-styled Latter-day saints, by Daniel Parish Kidder page 23

2. The Mormon's own book: or Mormonism tried by its own standards - reason and scripture, with an account of its present condition page 27

"Accordingly, I told them that I had received a command to let no man see it, ' Tor,' says I,' no man can see it with the naked eye and live.' However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refused to see it, and left the room."

3. The history of the saints, or, An expos

[LDS Guy 1986]

From the text, it is "these kingdoms" that shall be broken and consumed, and this by the kingdom that God sets up "which shall never be destroyed". I do not see the LDS church breaking and consuming any "kingdoms", which would be in fulfillment of this prophecy.

No you have it backwards, it is the kingdom (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) that will break into many pieces (the stakes and wards) and consume all these kingdoms (the nations of the Earth) and it shall stand forever.

The kingdoms of the earth are not broken but consumed by the kingdom of God, that work is happening right now, every time a stake is set up another nation is consumed by the Kingdom of God and we are fulfilling our preparations for the Second Coming of our Lord and King Jesus Christ.

This prophecy is directly referring to the restoration of Christ's true Church, we are preparing the way for his return and spreading the gospel to all the nations!

The verse fits perfectly, which is why it is in the Church's Gospel Principals manual. I am still looking for the D&C verse I know it's there I just need to find it.

[CQUIRK]

It is a signed affidavit sworn out by Peter Ingersall before Judge Baldwin of Wayne County Court in New York in December, 1833. He recounts what Joseph told him:

1. Mormonism and the Mormons: a historical view of the rise and progress of the sect self-styled Latter-day saints, by Daniel Parish Kidder page 23

2. The Mormon's own book: or Mormonism tried by its own standards - reason and scripture, with an account of its present condition page 27

"Accordingly, I told them that I had received a command to let no man see it, ' Tor,' says I,' no man can see it with the naked eye and live.' However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refused to see it, and left the room."

3. The history of the saints, or, An expos

[Deborah]

It is a signed affidavit sworn out by Peter Ingersall before Judge Baldwin of Wayne County Court in New York in December, 1833....

No wonder you spread such misinformation if these are your sources.

Martin Harris, was threatened with divine condemnation:

And your point is?

[Vex]

Beth, your posts scare me some times. Not from content, but because there's nothing quoted in it, but I do appreciate you posting your response at the bottom for ease of reading. I'll respond shortly.

No, my point is totally valid. I have said that there are anachronisms in the BofM that people debate about and offer various theories to explain such as the horse. Nemelka

[Vex]

And there are stories of other people seeing the savior.

I've heard similar arguments made as to why revelation ceased after the days of the original twelve apostles.

Nice try, but that anecdote doesn't hold water. We're not arguing that individuals cannot receive revelation, nor can the Church alter its practices and views by revelation.

Maybe we are using different definitions here, but I do not consider "having a testimony of Jesus" to be the same thing as "being a prophet." And, what about "seer" and "revelator"?

Let's see how an Apostle of the Lord has defined it: Rev 19:10

I think it's surprising that the Lord had so much to say that he wanted his people to hear for 20 years, and so little to say that he wanted them to hear for the next 166.

Let's see what Joseph himself has said on the subject:

[Vex]

Martin Harris, was threatened with divine condemnation:

Verse (1) BEHOLD, I say unto you, that as my servant Martin Harris has desired a witness at my hand, that you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., have got the plates of which you have testified and borne record that you have received of me;

Verse (26) And I the Lord command him, my servant Martin Harris, that he shall say no more unto them concerning these things, except he shall say: I have seen them, and they have been shown unto me by the power of God; and these are the words which he shall say.

Verse (27) But if he deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned (Doctrine and Covenants 5:1, 26-27).

You're missing a few verses which messes up your wresting of the D&C: Verses 11-17 state emphatically that Martin Harris is not yet ordained to receive his witness. And Verses 23-25 also counter what you are attempting to have them state.

But good try at wresting them.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/5?lang=eng

[beth]

<br />Beth, your posts scare me some times.

[Vex]

<br />Beth, your posts scare me some times.