Deborah Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 If anyone is interested in meeting Christopher and asking him ANYTHING in person, he is giving the opportunity:I can't think of anything I'd rather not do. He can have all the arguments he wants but the simple fact is he is not the authorized receptacle of such a revelation.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 While a belief held in Islamic circles, this is actually nowhere to be found in the Qu'ran.This is like saying that while the Word of Wisdom only says Coffee and Tea in some Mormon circles. The verse in the Koran was not clear (37:99-113) the leaders said it was Ishmael not Isaac, because Isaac wasn't old enough yet. Just as the Word of Wisdom only says hot drinks and is later clarified that hot drinks means coffee and tea.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 "False teachings" of women being inferior to men? I'd like a specific reference in the Qur'an (a book you've evidently not read) and I'd also ask you to explain how you reconcile these verses in light of what you've just said. Well did I say it was in the Koran, no I didn't you are also forgetting the black book of Islam the Haddiths, you know those nice collections of books of the teachings of Mohammad where he regularly murders Christians and Jews and rapes women. Where the vile and disgusting Sharia law derives from, the same law that allows men to beat there wives and daughters and even stone them to death.
Vex Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Well did I say it was in the Koran, no I didn't you are also forgetting the black book of Islam the Haddiths, you know those nice collections of books of the teachings of Mohammad where he regularly murders Christians and Jews and rapes women. Where the vile and disgusting Sharia law derives from, the same law that allows men to beat there wives and daughters and even stone them to death.You mean sort of like the Old Testament?
Deborah Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 You mean sort of like the Old Testament?CFR.
WalkerW Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 This is like saying that while the Word of Wisdom only says Coffee and Tea in some Mormon circles. Except that the LDS Church has always claimed to be led by continual revelation and living prophets. Thus, interpretation and application of doctrine, policy, procedure, etc. can change (and it certainly has in regards to the Word of Wisdom). A pious Muslim's view of the Qu'ran is quite a bit different from a Mormon's view of the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the D&C, or the Pearl of Great Price. Your approach is like saying Joseph Smith taught the Word of Wisdom was a commandment and a requirement for temple recommends. Or (maybe to the extreme) that Paul taught sola fides.
WalkerW Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 CFR.Which thing? Murder? Genocide? Rape? Stoning?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 You mean sort of like the Old Testament?The difference is that the stoning in the OT were for serious crimes like adultery and murder, also this form of punishment was done away with when Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses. Another evidence that Muhammad preached an other Gospel besides the one Christ taught. Running over your daughter with a SUV is not condoned under the OT Law of Moses, it it allowed under Sharia law, and fortunately the piece of trash that decided his daughter must die for becoming to "westernized" was convicted today of murder!
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Except that the LDS Church has always claimed to be led by continual revelation and living prophets. Thus, interpretation and application of doctrine, policy, procedure, etc. can change (and it certainly has in regards to the Word of Wisdom). A pious Muslim's view of the Qu'ran is quite a bit different from a Mormon's view of the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the D&C, or the Pearl of Great Price. Your approach is like saying Joseph Smith taught the Word of Wisdom was a commandment and a requirement for temple recommends. Or (maybe to the extreme) that Paul taught sola fides.So are saying that in Islam, they follow the literal words of the Koran and Hadiths and there is no interpretation of the scriptures at all?
WalkerW Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I'm not a Muslim apologist, but I do get rather tired of anti-Muslim attitudes (especially from LDS members who get up in arms about anti-Mormonism).See the following by Daniel C. Peterson:" " Freedom Fest 2008 debate between Peterson and Robert Spencer."What Would Muhammad Do? (WWMD)," The Mimi Geerges Show (Aug. 22, 2010). Muhammad: Prophet of God (Eerdmans, 2007)."Understanding Islam," Mormons and Muslims: Spiritual Foundations and Modern Manifestations, ed. Palmer, Spencer J., (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University 2002).Some of my fellow Christians' views toward Muslims remind me of Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion:The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.These are some of the reasons Dawkins and others think such a thing. We as Latter-day Saints should take more care than Dawkins and his cohorts in our approach to religious texts, history, and beliefs.
WalkerW Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 So are saying that in Islam, they follow the literal words of the Koran and Hadiths and there is no interpretation of the scriptures at all?I'm saying that there is a fundamentalist trend in Qu'ran interpretation today.
WalkerW Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 ...in Islam...This is like asking, "So, in Christianity, do people take the Bible literally?" There is no unified Islam, just like there is no unified Christianity.
Deborah Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Which thing? Murder? Genocide? Rape? Stoning?Vex seems to imply that husbands were allowed to beat their wives and daughters. And yes those other things were in there but not as husband-wife relationships.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I'm saying that there is a fundamentalist trend in Qu'ran interpretation today.And the official interpretation is Ishmael is the son mentioned, which means the Koran is false.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I'm not a Muslim apologist, but I do get rather tired of anti-Muslim attitudes (especially from LDS members who get up in arms about anti-Mormonism).See the following by Daniel C. Peterson:" " Freedom Fest 2008 debate between Peterson and Robert Spencer."What Would Muhammad Do? (WWMD)," The Mimi Geerges Show (Aug. 22, 2010). Muhammad: Prophet of God (Eerdmans, 2007)."Understanding Islam," Mormons and Muslims: Spiritual Foundations and Modern Manifestations, ed. Palmer, Spencer J., (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University 2002).Some of my fellow Christians' views toward Muslims remind me of Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion:The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.These are some of the reasons Dawkins and others think such a thing. We as Latter-day Saints should take more care than Dawkins and his cohorts in our approach to religious texts, history, and beliefs.I am not Anti-Muslim, I am anti- Sharia Law, I am anti Jihad, I am anti hate. I have served in the Middle East with the US Army and have close and deep ties with many Muslims, they are dear friends. Some have even died trying to stop the evil nature of those who follow the darker days of Muhammad's live where he taught death to all who refuse to convert, that lying in order to kill non believers is ok, and that Islam should take the over the world by any means necessary. Many Muslims reject these evil teachings of Muhammad, they are great and noble people, in parts of the Middle East they can be executed for standing up to the legacy of the tyrant Muhammad. I have no problem with peaceful Muslims, it's the militant onces I have a problem with. As I have heard said several times, it's not Islamaphobia if they really are trying to kill you.
Vex Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 CFR.Sorry, didn't see the CFR until now. It was stated in tongue-in-cheek.I was referring to the accounts concerning stoning's, wiping previous occupants of a land out, etc.I can get specifics if you'd like them (but I do not think it is congruent with the current discussion).
Deborah Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Sorry, didn't see the CFR until now. It was stated in tongue-in-cheek.okey dokey.
WalkerW Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Vex seems to imply that husbands were allowed to beat their wives and daughters. And yes those other things were in there but not as husband-wife relationships.Gotcha.
WalkerW Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I am not Anti-Muslim, I am anti- Sharia Law, I am anti Jihad, I am anti hate.Forgive me for being quick to judge. I have served in the Middle East with the US Army and have close and deep ties with many Muslims, they are dear friends. God bless you for your service. I mean that.Some have even died trying to stop the evil nature of those who follow the darker days of Muhammad's live where he taught death to all who refuse to convert, that lying in order to kill non believers is ok, and that Islam should take the over the world by any means necessary.Excellent. I'm always glad to hear accounts of moderate Muslims standing against the modern Islamic fundamentalism. The problem with the latter is that they take a universal understanding of these passages that should be left back in their historical, wartorn context. I have no problem with peaceful Muslims, it's the militant onces I have a problem with. As I have heard said several times, it's not Islamaphobia if they really are trying to kill youCouldn't agree more.
GingerRed Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 You clearly didn't approach this correctly. First, you have to desire to believe it. You must approach it with the hope that it is true. Second, you must read the entire thing and then ask God with real intent that it is true. You obviously haven't followed those steps. Only if you do so will you receive a confirming witness that it is true. I don't need to do all that in this case. I happen to have a strong power of discernment...sort of a gift I have for warning me of auras of evil. It has been a great service to me, especially when dating. I could feel those bad vibes reading that so called 'scripture'...and my little warning bells have never been wrong. Wanting it to be true (i.e., desiring to believe) is part of the formula to determine if it is true. I can't see why she is faulted for that.Because anyone can be fooled by 'false positives' as I call them. It's happened to me, too.Her experience is virtually indistinguishable to an experience recounted in the Liahona (I have linked to it many times in this thread). The only difference is the subject matter (Sealed Portion for Ida; BOM for the guy in the Liahona). Her experience seems just as valid as the guy in the Liahona.Yup it SEEMS so...but I for one have my doubts. You reached the conclusion that there "can only be one prophet on the earth at any give time" through some type of spiritual experience. This is exactly how Ida reached an opposite conclusion. I can't see any reason to give your experience greater credence than hers.Actually, I didn't have a spiritual experience to reach that conclusion. I just know it's true. I don't always have a knock down, lighting bolt, crying jag every time I pray about something to know if it's true or not. Sometimes the spirit can be very quiet, but still powerful. Hard to explain since it seems you yourself never experienced something like that...to my knowledge.Red
GingerRed Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 If anyone is interested in meeting Christopher and asking him ANYTHING in person, he is giving the opportunity:Here's your chance--CRITICS, ENEMIES, DISBELIEVERS, PRESS, AUTHORS, SCHOLARS, EXPERTS, ARCHIVISTS, ATTORNEYS, the CALLED or CHOSEN, PROPHETS, SEERS & REVELATORS, POPES, PRIESTS, BISHOPS, ETC., and DOUBTERS & CURIOUS--to meet CHRISTOPHER, the translator of the SEALED PORTION of the Book of Mormon and prove or disprove him now herewith.Saturday March 19th, 2011SLC, UT Main Library (210 E. 400 S) in the Main Auditorium10 AM-4 PM Free and Open to the PUBLIC (no registration required)All CHRISTOPHER'S critics, enemies, etc., are now put on notice that they will have their chance; and if they fail to show up, the integrity of their public and private critiques, their false declarations, disparagement and innuendo will be duly noted.We will run the event by the number system, setting up microphones and allowing only those who are critics, enemies, etc., to request a number before entering the theater. (A "friend" may also take a number if he or she has a critical concern.) Once we have gone through the numbers once, then we'll start over again allowing each one an opportunity to ask more questions. They can only ask one question at a time and must allow Christopher the opportunity to answer it, he will then allow them a brief counter question, but limiting the exchange to not more than 5 minutes for each question/issue for the sake of others who might attend and also wish to participate.Any questions or concerns please contact Rod Vessels (612-860-0026) orJulie Taggart (801-577-1928)Oh my gosh, for real??? LOL Somebody here ought to go, and come back and tell us what happened, so we can share a giggle! Red
sunstoned Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 If anyone is interested in meeting Christopher and asking him ANYTHING in person, he is giving the opportunity:Here's your chance--CRITICS, ENEMIES, DISBELIEVERS, PRESS, AUTHORS, SCHOLARS, EXPERTS, ARCHIVISTS, ATTORNEYS, the CALLED or CHOSEN, PROPHETS, SEERS & REVELATORS, POPES, PRIESTS, BISHOPS, ETC., and DOUBTERS & CURIOUS--to meet CHRISTOPHER, the translator of the SEALED PORTION of the Book of Mormon and prove or disprove him now herewith.You gotta say one thing for the guy. He's got guts.
Calm Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Oh my gosh, for real??? LOL Somebody here ought to go, and come back and tell us what happened, so we can share a giggle!Honestly, I find this rather inappropriate having heard the same thing about my own LDS beliefs for ages.We don't have to believe the man; we can even debate that he's a conman or not, but I don't see mocking and trivializing someone else's religious beliefs accomplishing anything of value and much of harm.
TAO Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Honestly, I find this rather inappropriate having heard the same thing about my own LDS beliefs for ages.We don't have to believe the man; we can even debate that he's a conman or not, but I don't see mocking and trivializing someone else's religious beliefs accomplishing anything of value and much of harm.Agreed. We should know better than to mock other people's beliefs. We can say they are wrong, but we should not mock.*sniffles* Reached Positive Vote Quota....
Calm Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 *sniffles* Reached Positive Vote Quota....Hmm.....this seems to happen more than randomly with my posts. I am beginning to be suspicious about you.
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