"Gender" - a Premortal Choice/Assignment/Track of Learning?

[David T]

That interpretation of Scott's comments is in direct contradiction with the very plain statement made in the Proclamation on the family, to which he participated: "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose", unless you interpret "eternal" as forward-looking only. I have always read it as meaning eternal in both directions. Still, that doesn't answer the points I raised in my post.

Actually, in that context, 'eternal' is appearing to take the meaning of extending infinitely into the future. The statement is threefold - "Premortal" (Past), "Mortal" (Present), "Eternal" (Future). Otherwise, it's redundant.

[thesometimesaint]

nackhadlow:

Both are fraught with problems. If we choose how do we explain the preference to males over females. If God chooses same question.

[nicolasconnault]

So, the implication of this is that you're saying appears to be that you believe some pre-mortal spirits look physically like Asians, some look like Africans, some are Aboriginal, others European, etc. Is that your position? That races are 'classes' of Spirits that were arranged to be born into those ethnic groups because they already physically look like those ethnic groups?

I'm more of the opinion that we all looked alike, and will yet all look alike physically in the eternities. I think I have just as many good reasons to believe that as to believe anything else about our physical appearance as spirits or resurrected beings

[CV75]

did we choose to exist in the first place? Even if you ignore that specific question, the problem remains in some way: if we have always existed (assuming the theory of eternal existence promoted by Joseph Smith), then was there a "state of origin" at which our identity and make-up was not yet determined by any choice we had made? Take two souls in such a hypothetical state: are they, like carbon copies, exactly identical? What would that state consist of?

I think we chose to continue to exist, but that we also always existed with God.

If we are co-eternal with God, then we always possessed agency (the basis of existence). At some point, our choices were limited to only good choices between good things (including gender), resulting in certain good consequences and progress (noting that not all good consequences are identical, but variation and differences in the type of goodness or talent all glorify God).

As long as there is existence, and truth acts for itself, there is no basis to assume that all truth is homogeneous in its expression, and so whatever form we ever existed in would not need to be homogeneous (or identical with another), either. Gender could have been part of our chosen identity very "early" on.

[David T]

nackhadlow:

Both are fraught with problems. If we choose how do we explain the preference to males over females. If God chooses same question.

Culture based on the dominance of the biologically physically stronger over the biologically physically weaker. Speaking nothing of intellectual stature and potential, of which men and women are clearly equal.

[nicolasconnault]

Actually, in that context, 'eternal' is appearing to take the meaning of extending infinitely into the future. The statement is threefold - "Premortal" (Past), "Mortal" (Present), "Eternal" (Future). Otherwise, it's redundant.

But you don't believe that "pre-mortal" extends forever in the past? Interesting

[David T]

But you don't believe that "pre-mortal" extends forever in the past? Interesting

Seeing that many involved in the production of the document (still) believe that there are different stages of our pre-mortal life, including a point where we became Sons and Daughters of God, I think that can be taken for granted that it can be understood in different ways, and is probably not meant to be parsed with deep(er) theological meaning. The meaning seems to be, "The distinct dual roles we experience here are not something that started here. We had them before as Spirit Children of God, and we'll continue them after." - What is being discussed is the doctrinal position of our life as Premortal Spirit Children of God, not any state that may have existed prior to that.

[CV75]

So, the implication of this is that you're saying appears to be that you believe some pre-mortal spirits look physically like Asians, some look like Africans, some are Aboriginal, others European, etc. Is that your position? That races are 'classes' of Spirits that were arranged to be born into those ethnic groups because they already physically look like those ethnic groups?

I think that is possible, but more importantly, I believe the family lines we came through are part of the "bounds and habitations" that Paul describes; how those families came to look the way they do may be a purely earthly function. On the scale of importance, I think gender has more eternal significance than the shape of the eye or even the bloodline (for we can be adopted into Israel, but not adopted into a new gender). I do think it is plausible that familial "nation-kindred-tongue-people" organizations existed before, and that they could well have gravitated into physically-similar groupings, at least in preparation for their earthly sojourn.

[nicolasconnault]

I think we chose to continue to exist, but that we also always existed with God.

If we are co-eternal with God, then we always possessed agency (the basis of existence). At some point, our choices were limited to only good choices between good things (including gender), resulting in certain good consequences and progress (noting that not all good consequences are identical, but variation and differences in the type of goodness or talent all glorify God).

As long as there is existence, and truth acts for itself, there is no basis to assume that all truth is homogeneous in its expression, and so whatever form we ever existed in would not need to be homogeneous (or identical with another), either. Gender could have been part of our chosen identity very "early" on.

The two bolded parts don't make much sense in an eternal pre-existence IMO. Anyway, your theory still doesn't explain the problem of choosing to be different from others in any area, not just gender. Was there a point at which we were not different from each other? Then what caused the differentiation, and on what variable were we different, beside gender? Was the differentiation imposed upon us through different choices being made available to different intelligences? Then the availability of choices was imposed upon us and was offered differently for different intelligences, suggesting a lack of real agency in choosing one's identity and purpose.

[Jason]

The problem with the idea that our spirits looks identical to our physical bodies is that then professes the principle that all marriages/parentages must be predestined to combine the genes (and chromosomes) that will make children who look like their parents, which is the form of their spirits, etc. It doesn't makes sense logically, or doctrinally - and denies our agency in our mortal decisions.

Foreordination is a doctrine of the Church, and one could carry it to being foreordained to be born into a family that has phsycial features that resemble your spirit body.

One could also approach the problem with the idea that the spirit affects the final shape the body takes (within the boundaries of genes) and vice versa - that is, that our spirits after mortality may look more like our bodies than they did before mortality.

[Jason]

While the Scott quote does not discuss choice, What I think the Scott quote does state is that Gender was something that was done as we were 'created male and female' spiritually.

I don't see that in the quote. Again, I feel he was merely emphasizing that gender was not created at birth.

a) Does Elder Scott believe God choose to 'create us' or assign us as Male and Female spirits without our involvement in the decision?

b) Does Elder Scott believe we had a choice in sustaining/choosing this assignment?

Cannot be answered from this quote.

[David T]

I don't see that in the quote. Again, I feel he was merely emphasizing that gender was not created at birth.

I agree that is the key purpose. But Elder Scott chooses his words very carefully, and uses the scriptural language of creating male and females, being 'done' by God.

Cannot be answered from this quote.

I agree. Which is why the question is extended to what all here think on the subject, and their reasons for it

[nicolasconnault]

Is it not possible to consider gender as an eternal part of our identity, even prior to spiritual "creation"? Could there also be other variables on which we have always differed from other intelligences?

[thesometimesaint]

nackhadlow:

I never said there was a difference in amount of intelligence or a difference in the quality of that intelligence between the sexes. My question is that because for every 100 females born there are 105 males. So either we chose in the pre-existence, so why the disparity?; or God chose, again so why the disparity?

[David T]

nackhadlow:

I never said there was a difference in amount of intelligence or a difference in the quality of that intelligence between the sexes. My question is that because for every 100 females born there are 105 males. So either we chose in the pre-existence, so why the disparity?; or God chose, again so why the disparity?

Ah, I misunderstood your use of the word 'preference'. I thought you were talking about cultural preference, not numerical preference.

[Garden Girl]

I'm more of the opinion that we all looked alike, and will yet all look alike physically in the eternities. I think I have just as many good reasons to believe that as to believe anything else about our physical appearance as spirits or resurrected beings

I do lean toward our physical spirit appearance being generally similar as a male or female (when we chose or were assigned the gender is not really known)... then when we are conceived by two parents and come here to take a physical body we inherit the specific mortal genetic characteristics of those two mortal beings such as eye/hair color, ethnicity, etc, which we retain to become our characteristics through our eternal progression. How else can we explain the numerous incidences of NDE where people recognize dear departed family members, or even "appearances" by a departed loved one to a family member... i.e., I have a dear friend who went through a very difficult time with his lady friend as she succumbed to cancer. A few weeks after she had passed away, he was in his home, during the day, and she appeared to him briefly. He said she looked peaceful and was smiling... and after a few seconds simply faded away. It was unexpected of course, particularly because this is a person who had not believed in life after death... just that when we died that was it... After that experience and our many discussions he has changed his view... but the point is he recognized her...

GG

[CV75]

The two bolded parts don't make much sense in an eternal pre-existence IMO. Anyway, your theory still doesn't explain the problem of choosing to be different from others in any area, not just gender. Was there a point at which we were not different from each other? Then what caused the differentiation, and on what variable were we different, beside gender? Was the differentiation imposed upon us through different choices being made available to different intelligences? Then the availability of choices was imposed upon us and was offered differently for different intelligences, suggesting a lack of real agency in choosing one's identity and purpose.

Yes, that's why I used quotes on "early"; at least the term "some point" leaves it somewhat nebulous so as to accommodate all that we do not understand about eternity...

RE: choosing to be different: in the realm where God exists, and He being more advanced and lovingly caring for us, there were nothing but good choices to be made, and that whatever we favored we chose to be. As intelligent beings, I think we explored and assessed all that was available in this regard and made choices based on love and caring. Because truth is independent and acts for itself, it does not have to express itself homogeneously, and so we had many true options and choices to make. I don't think we chose to be different for the sake of being different or by comparing ourselves with others. Being co-eternal with God allows this activity to have been taking place, and where it "began", no one knows. But if all truth is independent and acts for itself, as all intelligence also, and this is the basis of existence, and if we always existed, then we always acted for ourselves.

[nicolasconnault]

Yes, that's why I used quotes on "early"; at least the term "some point" leaves it somewhat nebulous so as to accommodate all that we do not understand about eternity...

RE: choosing to be different: in the realm where God exists, and He being more advanced and lovingly caring for us, there were nothing but good choices to be made, and that whatever we favored we chose to be. As intelligent beings, I think we explored and assessed all that was available in this regard and made choices based on love and caring. Because truth is independent and acts for itself, it does not have to express itself homogeneously, and so we had many true options and choices to make. I don't think we chose to be different for the sake of being different or by comparing ourselves with others. Being co-eternal with God allows this activity to have been taking place, and where it "began", no one knows. But if all truth is independent and acts for itself, as all intelligence also, and this is the basis of existence, and if we always existed, then we always acted for ourselves.

I agree with you, but none of this means that everything that we are must be the result of choices, our choices or anyone else's.

[nicolasconnault]

I do lean toward our physical spirit appearance being generally similar as a male or female (when we chose or were assigned the gender is not really known)... then when we are conceived by two parents and come here to take a physical body we inherit the specific mortal genetic characteristics of those two mortal beings such as eye/hair color, ethnicity, etc, which we retain to become our characteristics through our eternal progression. How else can we explain the numerous incidences of NDE where people recognize dear departed family members, or even "appearances" by a departed loved one to a family member... i.e., I have a dear friend who went through a very difficult time with his lady friend as she succumbed to cancer. A few weeks after she had passed away, he was in his home, during the day, and she appeared to him briefly. He said she looked peaceful and was smiling... and after a few seconds simply faded away. It was unexpected of course, particularly because this is a person who had not believed in life after death... just that when we died that was it... After that experience and our many discussions he has changed his view... but the point is he recognized her...

GG

I personally don't believe that eternal, spiritual beings only recognise each other by physical features. Otherwise there will be no way to distinguish the Father and the Son from each other in the eternities. I think there are other attributes that make us recognisable through other senses. Even here on earth we can discriminate between people through hearing, smell and touch (I'll skip on taste to keep the thread tasteful!), our "earthly" senses. I think there are other senses which are very limited while in our mortal condition, but that are very important for disembodied and resurrected beings.

[CV75]

I agree with you, but none of this means that everything that we are must be the result of choices, our choices or anyone else's.

It would be interesting to start a thread about what it is about ourselves that might not be a consequence of agency.

[nicolasconnault]

It would be interesting to start a thread about what it is about ourselves that might not be a consequence of agency.

Yes, like gender or toothpaste-tube-squeezing preference

[Deborah]

I personally believe that gender is part of the basic nature of intelligences. When we view men and women in mortality and see how differently they think then it is conceivable that those differences are something we bring with us and are part of the very nature of our spirits.

Now there is no question that mortality has it's affect on intelligence and spirit, but my thought is that the more we become like God spiritually, the more our physical bodies change to conform to our spirits. I have seen people who have lived a righteous clean life and in old age have the appearance of angels. I have seen people who have abused their bodies, and their appearances become darker and more worldly as they sink lower and lower. I look at some of the people on Jerry Springer for example and wonder how they could ever have lived in the presence of Heavenly Father. Yet, I know that as these kind of people turn their lives around so their outer appearance and countenances change. I have seen this type of transformation.

I had an interesting experience many years ago when I moved back to my home state of California. I was in grade school and was the new kid in class and the teacher asked if there was anyone I knew. I immediately pointed to one girl I remembered from the past. Now the point is that I did not recognize her physically at all because she would have looked different, but there was something else I recognized in her. I've also seen this happen with people I've never met before and yet have an immediate connection with and begin conversing as if I'd known them all my life; I think they are someone I probably knew pre-mortality. It wasn't a physical recognition but something on a more instinctive level.

[staccato]

Mortal gender is wrapped up mostly in hormones that drive both the body and mind. I have no idea whatsoever what a female or a male spirit gender would entail. I think that if we humans were stripped of the things that comprise our gender identification (genitalia, hormones and cultural expectations) we'd be surprised at how little our differences would be.

[tana]

Mortal gender is wrapped up mostly in hormones that drive both the body and mind. I have no idea whatsoever what a female or a male spirit gender would entail. I think that if we humans were stripped of the things that comprise our gender identification (genitalia, hormones and cultural expectations) we'd be surprised at how little our differences would be.

[blackstrap]

So what is to be done with the people who are blessed with dual gender/sex organs? Don't tell me they were "fence sitters" ! Doctors have assigned a particular gender often with major negative consequences.

Joseph S once described Paul.Joseph had no idea what he looked like in mortality ,but the description was not totally flattering.If he saw Paul as he was in mortality,but then Paul's spiritual self was not as it was then, it must have formed to the mortal shape.

As per Christ's statement about the variations in intelligence of individuals in the pre-existence ,I get the feeling that that variation existed pre spirit form.So also could be gender??