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Innocent Deaths


phaedrus ut

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It never occurred to me before how many stories in the Hebrew Bible involved God directly killing innocent children. Stories like The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Passover, sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24, killing all of Jeroboam's sons in 1 Kings 14, and many others. If you believe God to be fair and just how do you reconcile such behavior?

Phaedrus

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It never occurred to me before how many stories in the Hebrew Bible involved God directly killing innocent children. Stories like The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Passover, sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24, killing all of Jeroboam's sons in 1 Kings 14, and many others. If you believe God to be fair and just how do you reconcile such behavior?

Phaedrus

In one of Kenneth Ring's NDE books, (I think Heading Toward Omega), he provides the story of a woman who temporarily died while giving birth and met the Lord. She was told that she had to go back, but that in a few days he would come and take her baby. And she reported that in His loving presence, her emotions were, "You mean I get to let my baby go with you!" A few days later, the baby died, she remembered her experience, and her nurses were amazed that she did not grieve.

It's like Hugh Nibley says, things that don't make sense from one perspective, make look very different from another.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

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It never occurred to me before how many stories in the Hebrew Bible involved God directly killing innocent children.

And that is why he took innocent children, so that they would remain innocent. Furthermore, death is only considered a horror if one doesn't accept the eternal nature of life and that death is only one door opening into another room. There really are things worse than death.

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If you believe God to be fair and just how do you reconcile such behavior?

God has personally taken upon Himself all the pain and suffering of all His children, no matter what they go through by virtue of His allowing bad things to happen, allowing consequences, and fulfilling His promises and threats. But they suffer nothing He has not suffered for and paid for and made amends for. He will not only restore His children in the resurrection, He will add even greater blessings such as perfect healing, immortality, glory, eternal life and exaltation upon them. Not only is He perfectly fair and just in this, but merciful also. Little children are innocent and their suffering is not attributable to their wickedness, and the Lord recognizes this, yet they suffer and He pays for their eternal healing.

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phaedrus ut:

As God is the only one who can/does give them back their lives(We can't and so shouldn't). They didn't really lose anything.

Are you saying God gave them their mortal lives back? Maybe they were reincarnated and had an opportunity to grow up, raise a family and have a family of their own.

Phaedrus

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And that is why he took innocent children, so that they would remain innocent. Furthermore, death is only considered a horror if one doesn't accept the eternal nature of life and that death is only one door opening into another room. There really are things worse than death.

Is it ok to completely take away their agency and opportunity for a life of happiness? Killing them to remain innocent and not sin seems more like the plan offered by Satan in the story of the war in heaven.

I can't seem to get my head around how this is somehow moral behavior. If God told me to kill a child I couldn't do it because I know that killing children is always wrong. Always

Phaedrus

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It never occurred to me before how many stories in the Hebrew Bible involved God directly killing innocent children. Stories like The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Passover, sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24, killing all of Jeroboam's sons in 1 Kings 14, and many others. If you believe God to be fair and just how do you reconcile such behavior?

Phaedrus

The only way I can reconcile that with the God described by the NT and the BoM is to disregard those OT stories as fables. I refuse to believe that God's morality is inferior to my own.

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I can't seem to get my head around how this is somehow moral behavior. If God told me to kill a child I couldn't do it because I know that killing children is always wrong. Always

Well luckily, since your name isn't Abraham, it is unlikely that you'll ever be asked to kill a child.

However, I will say that not everyone holds the same value of life, innocent or not, as you do. There are places in the world where children are used as soliders; there are places where they have been used a human shields, and even places where they were left to die as martyrs in homocide bomber explosions.

God does as he sees fit, I am not qualified to ask God to explain his actions.

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Is it ok to completely take away their agency and opportunity for a life of happiness? Killing them to remain innocent and not sin seems more like the plan offered by Satan in the story of the war in heaven.

Who says these children did not choose their lifespan in the Pre-Existence?

There are two general purposes to coming to Earth - to gain a body, and to be tested.

These children already fufilled their test in the Pre-Existence. They only needed to gain possession of a body, and did not need to reach the age of accountability.

I can't seem to get my head around how this is somehow moral behavior. If God told me to kill a child I couldn't do it because I know that killing children is always wrong. Always
As others pointed out, it's a good thing your name isn't Abraham then. Or Moses, Joshua, etc.
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That's very true. My worldview doesn't allow for a scenario where anyone, including god, that kills children is morally acceptable.

Phaedrus

Then I would suggest that you need to have faith that God has a far more informed Worldview than we do.

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It never occurred to me before how many stories in the Hebrew Bible involved God directly killing innocent children. Stories like The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Passover, sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24, killing all of Jeroboam's sons in 1 Kings 14, and many others. If you believe God to be fair and just how do you reconcile such behavior?

God killed a whole lot more than that in the Flood. The reconcilliation is the fact that God values spiritual condition over mortal life.

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That's very true. My worldview doesn't allow for a scenario where anyone, including god, that kills children is morally acceptable.

Phaedrus

Hypothetical:

If God offered you the chance to go back in time to kill an innocent Adolph Hitler, before his atrocities, would you?

If I was given the offer, it would be mighty tempting. I would have to seriously consider it. Not only would it be saving the lives of millions of people, it would save Adolph from eternal damnation. I would find that morally acceptable.

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It never occurred to me before how many stories in the Hebrew Bible involved God directly killing innocent children. Stories like The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Passover, sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24, killing all of Jeroboam's sons in 1 Kings 14, and many others. If you believe God to be fair and just how do you reconcile such behavior?

Phaedrus

I think the most famous baby killing in the Bible is this one.

2 Sam 12

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15

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Hypothetical:

If God offered you the chance to go back in time to kill an innocent Adolph Hitler, before his atrocities, would you?

I would not, unless God commanded it outright.

I would also note that God kills entire cities of people in the Book of Mormon as well (though he apparently never commands the killing of children), so it's not just the Hebrew Bible that has God killing children.

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I think the most famous baby killing in the Bible is this one.

2 Sam 12

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15

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I would say that this was a punishment to David, but since the Child died innocent, that no harm was done, the child drew the "Go to CK, go directly to CK, do not pass go, do not collect $200" card. That is not something that should be mourned or condemned, (in my opinion), but something that I am greatly jealous of. How great a blessing to come into this mortal coil, and then be able to return to the Lord swiftly and innocently.

Temper your jealousy - those children do not experience the joys present in mortality either, such as sharing your trials with your eternal companion.

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Hypothetical:

If God offered you the chance to go back in time to kill an innocent Adolph Hitler, before his atrocities, would you?

If I was given the offer, it would be mighty tempting. I would have to seriously consider it. Not only would it be saving the lives of millions of people, it would save Adolph from eternal damnation. I would find that morally acceptable.

Choosing one of the most evil people in history somewhat proves my point. People can imagine killing someone that evil as happening for a greater good. But for example in 2 Kings 2 23-24 god kills 42 children for making fun of Elisha's bald head. Is that a reasonable response?

Phaedrus

// on a side note. There is a joke about time travel stories that "everyone kills Hitler on their first trip".

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Temper your jealousy - those children do not experience the joys present in mortality either, such as sharing your trials with your eternal companion.

I see your point, but I'm not about to follow in the ways of the insane and kill my kids.

I still view that death as a blessing to the child, but there are definately blessings to life as well.

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Choosing one of the most evil people in history somewhat proves my point. People can imagine killing someone that evil as happening for a greater good. But for example in 2 Kings 2 23-24 god kills 42 children for making fun of Elisha's bald head. Is that a reasonable response?

Phaedrus

// on a side note. There is a joke about time travel stories that "everyone kills Hitler on their first trip".

Well, we only know that Hitler was evil because he was allowed to live. Was one of those 42 going to grow up and ravage the Israelites? I have no idea, they weren't allowed to live.

On the one hand, sure it sounds awful that God killed the 42 kids. However, it would be a big incentive to listen to the Prophet of God, bald or not.

If those children were innocent (under 8 ) was it really a crime for the Lord? They all are gathered in the CK! Would it not be worse to kill a man (in his sins) like Laban; or the Priests of Baal?

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// on a side note. There is a joke about time travel stories that "everyone kills Hitler on their first trip".

// on that side note, I would rather go to Carthage Jail a few hours before Joseph Smith Jr. was killed and have a nice long chat with him about polygamy and what he was thinking. I would much rather get the truth from him, than go and kill Hitler on my first trip.

My other car is the TARDIS!

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The whole point of coming to earth is to be tested. There are allowances made for people who died without a real test, but to suggest that dying in infancy is somehow preferable to living a full life leads to unavoidably monstrous conclusions. If that idea is true, then the best thing you can do for your child is to murder her. Unfortunately some people have followed that line of reasoning to its disastrous conclusion.

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The whole point of coming to earth is to be tested. There are allowances made for people who died without a real test, but to suggest that dying in infancy is somehow preferable to living a full life leads to unavoidably monstrous conclusions. If that idea is true, then the best thing you can do for your child is to murder her. Unfortunately some people have followed that line of reasoning to its disastrous conclusion.

It's a difficult paradox that I could never resolve. That's why I enjoy reading other people's perspective on the situation.

Phaedrus

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