Jason Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 // on that side note, I would rather go to Carthage Jail a few hours before Joseph Smith Jr. was killed and have a nice long chat with him about polygamy and what he was thinking. I would much rather get the truth from him, than go and kill Hitler on my first trip.And what if his only answer was "It's what the Lord told me to do"?
Zakuska Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Temper your jealousy - those children do not experience the joys present in mortality either, such as sharing your trials with your eternal companion.There is always the Millenium for them to grow up in and raise a family.
Zakuska Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I see your point, but I'm not about to follow in the ways of the insane and kill my kids.I still view that death as a blessing to the child, but there are definately blessings to life as well.According to my daughter,,, I go insane and kill them every day when I come home and they haven't done their homework.
thesometimesaint Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 semlogo:True enough but we have no idea as to what anyone elses test is. I knew a little baby girl. She lived less than 2 weeks. Was that a trial? I think so; But only on knowing the rest of the story. It was her lot to be born with so many physical problems that life itself could not be sustained. My firm belief is that she is now a happy healthy mature adult in the Celestial Kingdom.
semlogo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 semlogo:True enough but we have no idea as to what anyone elses test is. I knew a little baby girl. She lived less than 2 weeks. Was that a trial? I think so; But only on knowing the rest of the story. It was her lot to be born with so many physical problems that life itself could not be sustained. My firm belief is that she is now a happy healthy mature adult in the Celestial Kingdom.It is one thing for someone to die by chance illness. It is quite another for God to order his followers to take up their swords and hack up the bodies of little babies. I can't accept that, ever.
Deborah Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24,Btw, these weren't little kids. Per the Old Testament Student Manual the word "little children" actually means young as opposed to old and as someone fit to go out to battle. Also the assumption that Elisha directed the bears may not be accurate as the idea of cursing them ends in v. 24. The she bears coming may be entirely unrelated to the curse, though they may have appeared in a timely manner to fulfill the curse. There is speculation that the young men may have destroyed the whelps of the she-bears and she came out to avenge them. This is why one must be careful in how they read and interpret in particular the OT.
Zakuska Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 // on that side note, I would rather go to Carthage Jail a few hours before Joseph Smith Jr. was killed and have a nice long chat with him about polygamy and what he was thinking. I would much rather get the truth from him, than go and kill Hitler on my first trip. My other car is the TARDIS!
phaedrus ut Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 Btw, these weren't little kids. Per the Old Testament Student Manual the word "little children" actually means young as opposed to old and as someone fit to go out to battle. Also the assumption that Elisha directed the bears may not be accurate as the idea of cursing them ends in v. 24. The she bears coming may be entirely unrelated to the curse, though they may have appeared in a timely manner to fulfill the curse. There is speculation that the young men may have destroyed the whelps of the she-bears and she came out to avenge them. This is why one must be careful in how they read and interpret in particular the OT.Where in the pericope do you get the impression that the kids destroyed the whelps of the bears or even that the bears coming is completely unrelated? I suggest that you'd like to read into the story that possibility because god sending bears to maul kids/youth for the crime of teasing is reprehensible and an alternative theory is more acceptable. Phaedrus
blackstrap Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 We are back at the old quandry about " why does God allow/cause bad things to happen to good/innocent people? " It really does not matter how old or young or how good or bad a person is when he dies, or how easy or hard the death . The longer I live the more I tend to view life as a virtual experience analogous to a flight simulator .
Deborah Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Where in the pericope do you get the impression that the kids destroyed the whelps of the bears or even that the bears coming is completely unrelated? I gave you the source. The original source was Commentary on the Bible pulished in 1936. Once again, it is pretty much accepted that "little children" is not what you are picturing but rather young men. Furthermore, it is unlikely the she-bears would be right there at that moment that Elisha cursed the young men unless there is something that precipitated their being there. It's one interpretation of what happened. In any case it's apparent we don't have the full story.
TAO Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 It never occurred to me before how many stories in the Hebrew Bible involved God directly killing innocent children. Stories like The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Passover, sending bears to kill teasing children in 2 Kings 2:23-24, killing all of Jeroboam's sons in 1 Kings 14, and many others. If you believe God to be fair and just how do you reconcile such behavior?PhaedrusPhaedrus, if God decides it is time for a person to come home, who are we to disagree with him? He sees the end, and we do not, and he has a good enough reason.I'm sure after we die, if we ask these children, they will not resent the choice God made. He called them home, maybe shortly after birth, for his own reasons. Perhaps they had missionary work to do in the world to come. Perhaps they needed to be around people who had already died. We know not his reason, but we know it is a good one.
Walden Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 death is only considered a horror if one doesn't accept the eternal nature of life and that death is only one door opening into another room. There really are things worse than death.Above is an example of the ridiculous misunderstandings that believers have regarding non-believers. As a non-believer, I realize that death is inescapable. I don't consider it a "horror", but rather a forgone conclusion, an inevitability that I do not have power over. Ironically, the people that I find to be most obsessed with death are believers. The non-believers that I know are aware that death is inevitable, that death is inescapable, and thus they accept it and realize that it makes living even more important. When I lost both of my grandparents over a short period of time, it was my LDS relatives who were more broken up about it than anyone, despite their "knowledge" of the afterlife.Maybe I'm an exception, but as a non-believer, death just doesn't really frighten me nor is it something that I ever really consider. It is what it is.Regarding the original post about God killing innocent children, to me it is just another example of any number of sadistic actions performed by the Old Testament god. I mean, here is a god that put Abraham through the mental anguish and torture of having to kill his son just to prove some sort of allegiance to god. This is also a god who makes a bet with satan which leads to unspeakable horrors being sent down upon Job, in an effort to essentially win a bet with satan.Yes, loving indeed.
ELF1024 Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 And what if his only answer was "It's what the Lord told me to do"?I could (and do) accept that, albiet I have some specific questions I'd like to ask him.
thesometimesaint Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Semlogo:I've heard it said if that Isaac would have been a teenager. It would have been no test for Abraham. But seriously. We don't know what the test is for anyone else. It might be unending poverty that is the test. For the next person it might be abounding in wealth. All our tests are geared to try and test us. They can also be a test for someone else. IE. How well do we adapt to the prolonged sickness/disability of loved ones. How about their untimely death? We just don't know. I don't know as I could kill anyone, again. I hope to never find out. I try my best to follow the Commandments, and what little inspiration I do receive from God. That is my test. My firm belief is that God will not deny any of us any righteous desires of our hearts. That includes any that died at the hands of others in the Old Testament.
Jason Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Regarding the original post about God killing innocent children, to me it is just another example of any number of sadistic actions performed by the Old Testament god. I mean, here is a god that put Abraham through the mental anguish and torture of having to kill his son just to prove some sort of allegiance to god. This is also a god who makes a bet with satan which leads to unspeakable horrors being sent down upon Job, in an effort to essentially win a bet with satan.Yes, loving indeed.Bereft of context, yes it does look bad.Of course, the loving God of the New Testament also refused to allow his only son to preach to non-Jews, allowed the chosen people to nail his son to a tree, and then withdrew his spirit from him at his hour of greatest need. What a sadistic god!It's like that despicable Luke Skywalker, who murdered thousands of guys who were just following orders and caused trillions in property damage but then refused to kill his mass-murdering father when he had the chance!
ELF1024 Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Bereft of context, yes it does look bad.Of course, the loving God of the New Testament also refused to allow his only son to preach to non-Jews, allowed the chosen people to nail his son to a tree, and then withdrew his spirit from him at his hour of greatest need. What a sadistic god!It's like that despicable Luke Skywalker, who murdered thousands of guys who were just following orders and caused trillions in property damage but then refused to kill his mass-murdering father when he had the chance!/sarc onOh come on! Luke couldn't kill him because he was in a black costume, and voiced by a black man. If nothing else, the dude didn't even have legs of his own! How could Luke kill a black guy who was half the man he used to be without being called a racist. Even if the guy was "this father"....At least he was only killing off the "clan wannabee" stormtroopers.../sarc off
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 phaedrus ut:As God is the only one who can/does give them back their lives(We can't and so shouldn't). They didn't really lose anything.
Deborah Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Above is an example of the ridiculous misunderstandings that believers have regarding non-believers. Did I refer generally to non-believers? I was responding to one person who apparently has a hard time with death. I always love it when someone takes a response to a specific remark and then extrapolates it to everyone. It makes me wonder why one would wear the shoes if they don't fit.
Walden Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Did I refer generally to non-believers? I was responding to one person who apparently has a hard time with death. I always love it when someone takes a response to a specific remark and then extrapolates it to everyone. It makes me wonder why one would wear the shoes if they don't fit.Your specific quote states that "Furthermore, death is only considered a horror if one doesn't accept the eternal nature of life and that death is only one door opening into another room." You specifically state that "death is...a horror if one doesn't accept the eternal nature of life,"....maybe I'm reading this wrong (and I even checked the post again to look at the context), but you can see why I came to the conclusion that you were making a general and not a specific statement. If this was a statement geared towards a specific person, I would suggest using the term "you" rather than "one".Anyway, not a big deal, I was just trying to make the point that in my observations, it is generally believers that are obsessed with death and its ramifications, not the other way around.
Deborah Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 I was just trying to make the point that in my observations, it is generally believers that are obsessed with death and its ramifications, not the other way around.I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. I know very few people who dwell on death whether believers or not unless they are dealing with it at the time.
Skylla Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Phaedrus: Please choose a less inflammatory title for this thread and I will edit it.Skylla
Walden Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. I know very few people who dwell on death whether believers or not unless they are dealing with it at the time.I guess you are right, believers rarely dwell on their reward in heaven, and the afterlife is rarely discussed in church.
Deborah Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 I guess you are right, believers rarely dwell on their reward in heaven, and the afterlife is rarely discussed in church.You may be sarcastic but this is true. Furthermore discussing the afterlife as part of the plan is not dwelling on death.
nicolasconnault Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 semlogo:True enough but we have no idea as to what anyone elses test is. I knew a little baby girl. She lived less than 2 weeks. Was that a trial? I think so; But only on knowing the rest of the story. It was her lot to be born with so many physical problems that life itself could not be sustained. My firm belief is that she is now a happy healthy mature adult in the Celestial Kingdom.I'm not sure that the concept of "healthy/unhealthy" applies to disembodied spirits, as doubtless that little girl currently is. Some of the prophets also believed that our resurrected body will be at the same physical maturity as we were when we died, and that we will grow to the adult age from that point. I don't think there are any scriptures supporting that later point though, but I think Joseph Fielding Smith taught it.
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