Pure Blood lines?

[katherine the great]

There were no Gentiles present until Israel rejected the gospel then God allowed the Gentiles(English-French-Spanish-Portuguese-Black slaves) to invade America.

Wow. Can you please explain how "Black slaves" "invaded" America? It really seems like they were brought here without any choice on their part.

[daz2]

I am a descendent of my grandfather--but I am a descendent of others too who were alive at the same time as he. I can be a descendent of Israel and be a descendent of others, who were not of Israel, who were living at the same time.

[brightpath]

Wow. Can you please explain how "Black slaves" "invaded" America? It really seems like they were brought here without any choice on their part.

The slaves were brought by the Gentiles of course against their will.

[brightpath]

Maybe you need to define "pure blood." Do you claim that those who are declared from the tribe of Ephraim have no other ancestors than Ephraim? We claim to be from Ephraim because we either share his blood (one ONE or more line) or else we have been symbolically adopted into his tribe because we have been foreordained to participate in the mission of his tribe. Please read these scriptures and then tell me how you can possibly claim that ancient Israelites did not ever marry foreign people. Deut. 21: 10--14, Judges 3: 5--7, Numbers 25:1 and Numbers 11:4. Then please read the entire Old Testament and notice that the frequent apostasy of ancient Israel always happened when they intermarried with the Canaanites and started worshipping their gods, and then were plagued with something terrible, and then repented and then were pronounced clean and again accepted by God and explain how you think they could do that without retaining any of the genes they inherited from their thousands (probably millions) of Canaanite ancestors. We can go back further than even Abraham. Even if you literally believe that the billions of people on the planet descended from three men and their wives who lived approximately six thousand years ago (which I suspect you do), who do you think Shem's children married? Their own brothers and sisters or their cousins? I'm guessing their cousins who would have been fathered by Japheth and Ham.

How do you share his blood? So claim you have Ephraim's blood running through your veins. Really? How much Blood? I'm sure you did your genealogy right? You are adopted into Israel only. You are not a literal descendant. If you are tell me how so? You are proving me right by your scriptures. If you say mixing happened with Israel then all their blood is diluted including yours.

[katherine the great]

How do you share his blood? So claim you have Ephraim's blood running through your veins. Really? How much Blood? I'm sure you did your genealogy right? You are adopted into Israel only. You are not a literal descendant. If you are tell me how so? You are proving me right by your scriptures. If you say mixing happened with Israel then all their blood is diluted including yours.

I'm having a hard time understanding your post. Blood is not "diluted". There is no water added to our blood and yes, I am very proud to have many different genes from ancestors of some genetic diversity. Every human being on the planet has a rich genetic history--even Israelites. Judges 3:5-6 "And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites and Amorites and Perrizites, and Hivites and Jebusites: And they TOOK THEIR DAUGHTERS TO BE THEIR WIVES and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods." This is a recurring theme for them over a thousand year time period. There was lots of "mixing" going on.

[brightpath]

I'm having a hard time understanding your post. Blood is not "diluted". There is no water added to our blood and yes, I am very proud to have many different genes from ancestors of some genetic diversity. Every human being on the planet has a rich genetic history--even Israelites. Judges 3:5-6 "And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites and Amorites and Perrizites, and Hivites and Jebusites: And they TOOK THEIR DAUGHTERS TO BE THEIR WIVES and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods." This is a recurring theme for them over a thousand year time period. There was lots of "mixing" going on.

Okay so how do you claim your Ephraim by a blessing that told you so. What does your genealogy say? Your ancestors came from Europe I assume. If there is all this mixing going on with Israel throughout all these years then is their blood lost. Are you saying Lehi, Ishmael, and the Mulekites were mixed bloods?

[katherine the great]

. If there is all this mixing going on with Israel throughout all these years then is their blood lost. Are you saying Lehi, Ishmael, and the Mulekites were mixed bloods?

Did you read the scriptures I asked you to read? The scriptures say they were "mixed". That isn't my own original thought. You speak of our Lord as if He's some cosmic dog breeder who is only concerned with producing AKC papers for purebred Israelite puppies. He's not. He is concerned with our beliefs-not the color of our skin or hair or eyes. Those things are non issues to Him. The purpose of Israelites marrying other Israelites was to keep their hearts pure. Marrying idol worshipping neighbors almost always led to their hearts turning to other gods.

[ElfLord]

...as if He's some cosmic dog breeder...

[Zakuska]

Did you read the scriptures I asked you to read? The scriptures say they were "mixed". That isn't my own original thought. You speak of our Lord as if He's some cosmic dog breeder who is only concerned with producing AKC papers for purebred Israelite puppies. He's not. He is concerned with our beliefs-not the color of our skin or hair or eyes. Those things are non issues to Him. The purpose of Israelites marrying other Israelites was to keep their hearts pure. Marrying idol worshipping neighbors almost always led to their hearts turning to other gods.

I beleive these verses prove your point pretty explicitly...

Ezekiel 16

1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

[Hannah Rebekah]

In Israelite custom, Judaism is always ascribed through the bloodline of the wife, not the husband. If a Jewish man is married to a gentile woman, the child is not Jewish, but if a Jewish woman marries a gentile man, the child is Jewish. (Rabbi Kleiman, DNA and Traditions, 41, The female mitochondrial DNA, which changes very little from generation to generation, carries the lineage code and is passed on to both male and female children, whereas, the Y chromosome passes only to males.)

The inheritance comes through the father's line but the tribal identity follows the mother's line. The inheritance rights of the line are not passed through the mother except for a little-known exception to the rule. Numbers 27:8 says if there is no male heir, a female may pass on the inheritance if she marries within her own tribe (Numbers 36:6). This is how Jesus received both the inheritance and the tribal identity through his mother as she had no brothers.

"For it shall be the seed of the woman, not the offspring of the man" (Genesis 3:15)

It is claimed that Asenath was a direct matrilineal (female line) descendant of Shem's wife. She probably possessed the pure lineage of Eve in her mtDNA. (see Joseph F. McConkie, His Name Shall Be Joseph, 189, 205ff.; Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 1: 169-71)

The injunctions not to marry gentiles are in the Bible (Deuteronomy 7:3) and the temple scroll "Statutes of the King." One should marry only an Israelite woman, a wife from his father's own tribe." This comes from Abraham's instruction to Isaac, see Genesis 24:37.

Rabbinical law was more generous; the king could take a wife from any Israelite tribe. In those days of polygamy, the king or priest could take wives of Israel, but the preferred bloodline came from the wife of the father's tribe, usually the first wife.

I believe that it is possible that there are pure bloodlines ethat God watched over through the ages. Brigham Young tells us: "The Lord had his eye upon him [Joseph Smith], and upon his father, and upon his father's father, and upon their progenitors clear back to Abraham and from Abraham to the flood, from the flood to Enoch, and from Enoch to Adam. He [God] has watched that family and that blood as it has circulated from its fountain to the birth of that man. (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses (9 October 1859), 7: 289-90.

Could it be that "

[brightpath]

In Israelite custom, Judaism is always ascribed through the bloodline of the wife, not the husband. If a Jewish man is married to a gentile woman, the child is not Jewish, but if a Jewish woman marries a gentile man, the child is Jewish. (Rabbi Kleiman, DNA and Traditions, 41, The female mitochondrial DNA, which changes very little from generation to generation, carries the lineage code and is passed on to both male and female children, whereas, the Y chromosome passes only to males.)

The inheritance comes through the father's line but the tribal identity follows the mother's line. The inheritance rights of the line are not passed through the mother except for a little-known exception to the rule. Numbers 27:8 says if there is no male heir, a female may pass on the inheritance if she marries within her own tribe (Numbers 36:6). This is how Jesus received both the inheritance and the tribal identity through his mother as she had no brothers.

"For it shall be the seed of the woman, not the offspring of the man" (Genesis 3:15)

It is claimed that Asenath was a direct matrilineal (female line) descendant of Shem's wife. She probably possessed the pure lineage of Eve in her mtDNA. (see Joseph F. McConkie, His Name Shall Be Joseph, 189, 205ff.; Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 1: 169-71)

The injunctions not to marry gentiles are in the Bible (Deuteronomy 7:3) and the temple scroll "Statutes of the King." One should marry only an Israelite woman, a wife from his father's own tribe." This comes from Abraham's instruction to Isaac, see Genesis 24:37.

Rabbinical law was more generous; the king could take a wife from any Israelite tribe. In those days of polygamy, the king or priest could take wives of Israel, but the preferred bloodline came from the wife of the father's tribe, usually the first wife.

I believe that it is possible that there are pure bloodlines ethat God watched over through the ages. Brigham Young tells us: "The Lord had his eye upon him [Joseph Smith], and upon his father, and upon his father's father, and upon their progenitors clear back to Abraham and from Abraham to the flood, from the flood to Enoch, and from Enoch to Adam. He [God] has watched that family and that blood as it has circulated from its fountain to the birth of that man. (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses (9 October 1859), 7: 289-90.

Could it be that "

[volgadon]

Amen, Yes there are pure bloodlines left. Not everyone is mixed like Katherine seems to think.

I'm ethnically Jewish, and so is my father. However, we both look very Slavic. My father in particular looks like a western Ukrainian/Romanian. I remember meeting someone who looked almost exactly like my father. He wasn't Jewish, but came from the same region where my great-grandparents were from.

http://www.masa.co.il/_content/images/ec823931af91a065df77b456d1f3eb43_188_p71a.jpg Yemenite Jews.

http://www.traveladventures.org/continents/asia/images/yemenipeople02.jpg Muslim Yemenis.

I can provide dozens of similar examples.

[Calm]

Amen, Yes there are pure bloodlines left. Not everyone is mixed like Katherine seems to think.

For those who believe in pure bloodlines, is there any way to scientifically measure this?

[volgadon]

In Israelite custom, Judaism is always ascribed through the bloodline of the wife, not the husband. If a Jewish man is married to a gentile woman, the child is not Jewish, but if a Jewish woman marries a gentile man, the child is Jewish. (Rabbi Kleiman, DNA and Traditions, 41, The female mitochondrial DNA, which changes very little from generation to generation, carries the lineage code and is passed on to both male and female children, whereas, the Y chromosome passes only to males.)

In later Jewish custom, not Israelite. Until late antiquity a child's (or wife's) faith and lineage was through the father, not the mother. "By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign woman joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband." http://www4.jrf.org/resources/files/Shaye%20Cohen%20-%20the%20Matrilineal%20Principle%20in%20Historical%20Perspective.pdf

[daz2]

What is the definition of a pure blood line for this purpose?

Assuming 30 years equals a generation, then there would be about 90 generations between each person alive today and their ancestors 3000 years ago. If one prepared a pedigree chart, it would show that the number of ancestors each person would have had alive at that time would be 2^90 (2 raised to the 90th power) = 1.23794004

[katherine the great]

Amen, Yes there are pure bloodlines left. Not everyone is mixed like Katherine seems to think.

How do you account for the SCRIPTURES I gave you that say they are mixed? I didn't write the scriptures.

[LDS Guy 1986]

If the Davidic blood line was being so safely guarded by the Lord as the OT makes it out to be and the Law of Moses was instituted to preserve the blood line pure until the Savior should come?

Then how in the world does a Gentile convert end up being the Great Grand Mother of Kind David and contaminating the blood line?

http://www.online-bible.org.uk/ruth/

Hmmm... now Israelites can have Gentile blood lines thus complicating the DNA issue all the More!

Show me the scripture that says David's bloodline must be pure till Christ came, all it says is that Christ is from the line of David (since David's line holds the right to the throne of Judah forever).

Also the Mosaic law predates David by several hundred years, so I don't see how the Mosaic law was made to preserve Davids bloodline (since David wasn't born till hundreds of years after the Mosaic law was complete.

Also where does the Bible mention anywhere at all that any bloodline has to be pure?

I think you are confused because you are placing many non biblical things on top of the truth of the Bible.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Wow you are really out there. So how can you claim you are from Ephraim? You are not a pure blood or even a half blood. So how can us members of the church claim we are from Ephraim? Natives that haven't mixed with Gentiles blood are pure bloods.

Is this Harry Potter or the Holy Scriptures we are talking about?

Someone please tell me where this "pure blood" is mentioned in the scriptures?

[katherine the great]

Is this Harry Potter or the Holy Scriptures we are talking about?

Someone please tell me where this "pure blood" is mentioned in the scriptures?

It isn't. This thread seems to have been invaded by the racists who pop up now and then with their weird theories of ethnic "purity.". I do believe that the Old testament mentions a "Holy race" referring to Israel but they are "holy" only when they worshipped the one true God and ONLY Him. Intermarriage tended to lead their hearts away to false gods, but it happened frequently. Anyone who clings to a "pure race" theory doesn't know the scriptures and has no understanding of genetics, history or human behavior.

[brightpath]

Maybe you need to define "pure blood." Do you claim that those who are declared from the tribe of Ephraim have no other ancestors than Ephraim? We claim to be from Ephraim because we either share his blood (one ONE or more line) or else we have been symbolically adopted into his tribe because we have been foreordained to participate in the mission of his tribe. Please read these scriptures and then tell me how you can possibly claim that ancient Israelites did not ever marry foreign people. Deut. 21: 10--14, Judges 3: 5--7, Numbers 25:1 and Numbers 11:4. Then please read the entire Old Testament and notice that the frequent apostasy of ancient Israel always happened when they intermarried with the Canaanites and started worshipping their gods, and then were plagued with something terrible, and then repented and then were pronounced clean and again accepted by God and explain how you think they could do that without retaining any of the genes they inherited from their thousands (probably millions) of Canaanite ancestors. We can go back further than even Abraham. Even if you literally believe that the billions of people on the planet descended from three men and their wives who lived approximately six thousand years ago (which I suspect you do), who do you think Shem's children married? Their own brothers and sisters or their cousins? I'm guessing their cousins who would have been fathered by Japheth and Ham.

You are proving my point with these scriptures. Judges 3:5-7 The Lord was hot and angry fir mixing with them. So did they continue? No they stopped mixing repented and married their own again. By doing this the Gentile blood was washed out over the next generations. The key here is that it wasn't excepted. Duet. 21:10-14 if you read on further it says, those Israelites that were mixed were not excepted until the 3rd to 10th generation. Why? So the Gentile blood would be diminished(3rd) or washed out(10th) by then. Numbers 11:4 the word mixt is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel mixed among themselves and no they did not mix with the Egyptians while they were in Egypt. They lived in the valley of Goshen seperated from the Egyptians. Numbers 25:1 As I pointed out earlier the Moabites were Hebrews by the lineage of Abraham's brother Haran. Now I can play the same game as you about the Old Testament. You go back and read it and you will find many instances that Israel was kept separated and not permitted to mix with Gentiles. God was so strict with Israel He even told them to camp in their own tribes. You brought up Abraham. What happened? God sent Ishmael and his mother Hagar away from them so they wouldn't mix. The birthright was with Isaac. You also brought up Shem. When God orders you to not mix with Ham's seed you obey and do it right? That means you intermarry with your own. Please read the old testament this happens many times. An example of this is Lot and his daughters, thus brought about the Moabites. There are also examples in the New Testament. The Jews wouldn't allow the Samaritan's to help build the temple in Jerusalem because they were Jews that were mixed with Gentile blood. If Israel was deep seeded with the Canaanites as you claim then how come the Jews aren't black or dark skinned? The reason is their blood was washed out after Israel repented and started marrying within their own race again.

[brightpath]

It isn't. This thread seems to have been invaded by the racists who pop up now and then with their weird theories of ethnic "purity.". I do believe that the Old testament mentions a "Holy race" referring to Israel but they are "holy" only when they worshipped the one true God and ONLY Him. Intermarriage tended to lead their hearts away to false gods, but it happened frequently. Anyone who clings to a "pure race" theory doesn't know the scriptures and has no understanding of genetics, history or human behavior.

Israel is the chosen race do you not understand the scriptures? Please read the BOM. Now that I answered your questions, answer mine. How are you the literal seed of Ephraim? or are you adopted Israel as the scriptures state? Please let me know and if you go by your logic about all this mixing then what hope do you have in claiming that you are an Israelite?

[volgadon]

If Israel was deep seeded with the Canaanites as you claim then how come the Jews aren't black or dark skinned?

First of all, the Canaanites were not black skinned, nor were they darker than anyone else in the Levant.

Second, did you take a look at that picture I posted of Yemenite Jews?

Here is another picture.

http://www.bustanabraham.co.il/image/users/108678/ftp/my_files/favorit/26458_(49).jpg The Jews of Peqiin. They had been living in Peqiin since at least the 2nd Temple era.

[Zakuska]

You are proving my point with these scriptures. Judges 3:5-7 The Lord was hot and angry fir mixing with them. So did they continue? No they stopped mixing repented and married their own again. By doing this the Gentile blood was washed out over the next generations. The key here is that it wasn't excepted. Duet. 21:10-14 if you read on further it says, those Israelites that were mixed were not excepted until the 3rd to 10th generation. Why? So the Gentile blood would be diminished(3rd) or washed out(10th) by then. Numbers 11:4 the word mixt is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel mixed among themselves and no they did not mix with the Egyptians while they were in Egypt. They lived in the valley of Goshen seperated from the Egyptians. Numbers 25:1 As I pointed out earlier the Moabites were Hebrews by the lineage of Abraham's brother Haran. Now I can play the same game as you about the Old Testament. You go back and read it and you will find many instances that Israel was kept separated and not permitted to mix with Gentiles. God was so strict with Israel He even told them to camp in their own tribes. You brought up Abraham. What happened? God sent Ishmael and his mother Hagar away from them so they wouldn't mix. The birthright was with Isaac. You also brought up Shem. When God orders you to not mix with Ham's seed you obey and do it right? That means you intermarry with your own. Please read the old testament this happens many times. An example of this is Lot and his daughters, thus brought about the Moabites. There are also examples in the New Testament. The Jews wouldn't allow the Samaritan's to help build the temple in Jerusalem because they were Jews that were mixed with Gentile blood. If Israel was deep seeded with the Canaanites as you claim then how come the Jews aren't black or dark skinned? The reason is their blood was washed out after Israel repented and started marrying within their own race again.

Then you have some splanin to do...

Eunice

[Zakuska]

Show me the scripture that says David's bloodline must be pure till Christ came, all it says is that Christ is from the line of David (since David's line holds the right to the throne of Judah forever).

Also the Mosaic law predates David by several hundred years, so I don't see how the Mosaic law was made to preserve Davids bloodline (since David wasn't born till hundreds of years after the Mosaic law was complete.

Also where does the Bible mention anywhere at all that any bloodline has to be pure?

I think you are confused because you are placing many non biblical things on top of the truth of the Bible.

Galatians 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law's purpose was to safeguard the bloob line till the promised seed came. The promise was originally given to isaac then passed down David gave it to his son and it was passed down until Christ came who fullfilled the promise and established the throne forever.

[katherine the great]

You are proving my point with these scriptures. Judges 3:5-7 The Lord was hot and angry fir mixing with them. So did they continue? No they stopped mixing repented and married their own again. By doing this the Gentile blood was washed out over the next generations. The key here is that it wasn't excepted. Duet. 21:10-14 if you read on further it says, those Israelites that were mixed were not excepted until the 3rd to 10th generation. Why? So the Gentile blood would be diminished(3rd) or washed out(10th) by then. Numbers 11:4 the word mixt is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel mixed among themselves and no they did not mix with the Egyptians while they were in Egypt. They lived in the valley of Goshen seperated from the Egyptians. Numbers 25:1 As I pointed out earlier the Moabites were Hebrews by the lineage of Abraham's brother Haran. Now I can play the same game as you about the Old Testament. You go back and read it and you will find many instances that Israel was kept separated and not permitted to mix with Gentiles. God was so strict with Israel He even told them to camp in their own tribes. You brought up Abraham. What happened? God sent Ishmael and his mother Hagar away from them so they wouldn't mix. The birthright was with Isaac. You also brought up Shem. When God orders you to not mix with Ham's seed you obey and do it right? That means you intermarry with your own. Please read the old testament this happens many times. An example of this is Lot and his daughters, thus brought about the Moabites. There are also examples in the New Testament. The Jews wouldn't allow the Samaritan's to help build the temple in Jerusalem because they were Jews that were mixed with Gentile blood. If Israel was deep seeded with the Canaanites as you claim then how come the Jews aren't black or dark skinned? The reason is their blood was washed out after Israel repented and started marrying within their own race again.

What, exactly was your point? I can't remember. Our ancestors are NEVER "washed" out of our family tree. My Cherokee ggggrandmother is still my ggggrandmother--no matter what--no matter how many generations pass. You concede that Israel intermarried with their Canaanite neighbors during certain times. Those people are part of their bloodline. What exactly is it you are objecting to? Skin color? Eye color? Height? Weight? Those are superficial things that don't mean Jack Diddly squat to our creator. He created ALL of us. He cares about our hearts and our beliefs. Canaanites were idol worshipping polytheists who were just normal, regular people but who engaged in worship that the Lord forbid the Israelites to participate in (which included child sacrifice.) You are so microfocused on ethnicity that you are completely missing the whole point of God's mandate. You are also missing the fact that even long after the time of the Judges that Israel fell into the forbidden worship numerous times. Read the prophecies. "Stop being wicked or God will scatter you!" They kept marrying their neighbors and adopting their religions and so God punished them. Even according to the most current archaeology, Israel worshipped numerous gods until the period of time when Judah returned from exile. Only from that period on were they truly monotheistic and perhaps the intermarriage (that you consider impure blood) stopped being commonplace. As to modern Jewish people being "light skinned", HELLO! Ashkenazi Jews were in Europe for two THOUSAND years. A few European convert brides along the way can easily account for that. Again, God doesn't CARE about the color of our skin, He cares about the color of our hearts. As other posters have amply shown you, modern Jewish people come in all colors, shapes and sizes. In America, most of the Jewish people we see are descendants of European Jews. Not so in other parts of the world. Try to drop your Eurocentric view of the world for five minutes and just look at the facts.

As to Ephraim. I don't really understand your persistent question. Yes, I'm from the tribe of Ephraim. I always considered myself adopted in to this tribe, although it completely possible that some literal descendant from Ephraim found his or her way to Great Britain or France during the three thousand year period that has elapsed since Ephraim's people were sent in to exile during the Assyrian empire. That is a very long time for people to be relocated, captured, sold in to slavery, be married off to people of other ethnicities (Oh the horror!) and reproduce many many millions of people.