Pure Blood lines?

[Zakuska]

If the Davidic blood line was being so safely guarded by the Lord as the OT makes it out to be and the Law of Moses was instituted to preserve the blood line pure until the Savior should come?

Then how in the world does a Gentile convert end up being the Great Grand Mother of Kind David and contaminating the blood line?

This Book is called Ruth, from the name of the person whose history is here recorded: who, being a Gentile, became a convert to the true faith, and marrying Booz, the great-grandfather of David, was one of those from whom Christ sprung according to the flesh, and an illustrious figure of the Gentile church

http://www.online-bible.org.uk/ruth/

Hmmm... now Israelites can have Gentile blood lines thus complicating the DNA issue all the More!

[jadams_4242]

If the Davidic blood line was being so safely guarded by the Lord as the OT makes it out to be and the Law of Moses was instituted to preserve the blood line pure until the Savior should come?

Then how in the world does a Gentile convert end up being the Great Grand Mother of Kind David and contaminating the blood line?

http://www.online-bible.org.uk/ruth/

Hmmm... now Israelites can have Gentile blood lines thus complicating the DNA issue all the More!

are we forgetting about prophecy being fullfilled?.

[Zakuska]

What prophecy did you have in mind?

To me it just points to the idea of blood lines (or being the seed of Abraham) has nothing to do with salvation.

I wonder if they could DNA test ancestors of Ruth and trace her gentileness back to its source.

[katherine the great]

I have a couple of comments about this. First, the Bible states very clearly that the Israelites married very freely with their Gentile neighbors during the period of the Judges. Second, Ruth would not have been that genetically different than her Israelite neighbors. Moabites were descended from Lot--Abraham's nephew. "Pure" bloodlines are a myth--unless someone can figure out how to reproduce alone.

[Zakuska]

I have a couple of comments about this. First, the Bible states very clearly that the Israelites married very freely with their Gentile neighbors during the period of the Judges. Second, Ruth would not have been that genetically different than her Israelite neighbors. Moabites were descended from Lot--Abraham's nephew. "Pure" bloodlines are a myth--unless someone can figure out how to reproduce alone.

I agree with what you have said Katherine. Another good example is Joseph in Egypt, who married the convert daughter of a Pagan priest.

But that still brings in the question why the safe guard of the Law of Moses to preserve a bloodline that was just going to be muddied anyways?

Galatians 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

[katherine the great]

I agree with what you have said Katherine. Another good example is Joseph in Egypt, who married the convert daughter of a Pagan priest.

But that still brings in the question why the safe guard of the Law of Moses to preserve a bloodline that was just going to be muddied anyways?

Galatians 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The purpose was to help the children of Israel to stay true to the covenant. The Lord didn't want them marrying idol worshipping neighbors. There are other examples of people being accepted as converts. Israelites took many, many "foreign" slaves through war and bore many, many children by them. I would guess (just an educated guess) that there was at least as much Canaanite blood in ancient Israel as "Israelite" (Mesopotamian) blood. There is no textual evidence that Asenath converted, but does seem likely that he would not marry someone who wasn't amenable to the idea.

[Zakuska]

The purpose was to help the children of Israel to stay true to the covenant. The Lord didn't want them marrying idol worshipping neighbors. There are other examples of people being accepted as converts. Israelites took many, many "foreign" slaves through war and bore many, many children by them. I would guess (just an educated guess) that there was at least as much Canaanite blood in ancient Israel as "Israelite" (Mesopotamian) blood. There is no textual evidence that Asenath converted, but does seem likely that he would not marry someone who wasn't amenable to the idea.

I think I can agree with that.

So it wasn't so much as to preserve a blood line as it was to preserve a religion. Preserve a people who were not Idol worshippers and could bring forth the Christ child.

PS. Do you think Ezra could/should have just had the women and children instructed and converted instead, rather than proclaiming a national divorce holiday?

[katherine the great]

PS. Do you think Ezra could/should have just had the women and children instructed and converted instead, rather than proclaiming a national divorce holiday?

No. I think that the women who would convert or had already converted were exempt from the mandate. Leaders from each family set up interviews with each man who had married a foreign wife and it was handled on a case by case basis. I also think it's important that this wasn't even Ezra's idea. Ezra's function was to lead the people in repentance for what they had done and he did that spectacularly. It was one of the priests who had the idea to send them all away and I believe that they were all given the chance to convert (even though the text doesn't explicity say that.) I think this story is about second chances. The Jews were given an opportunity to start fresh and not repeat the mistakes of their ancestors which resulted in their captivity. Persian rule gave them a chance to go back and reestablish the temple and their religion. If even the priests and Levites were bringing back idol worship with them, it would completely ruin any fresh start that the Lord was affording them. Even in the church today, marriage to nonmembers is strongly discouraged. However, there are still wonderful success stories of spouse's conversions--sometimes many years into the marriage. It's an age old dilemma.

[brightpath]

I agree with what you have said Katherine. Another good example is Joseph in Egypt, who married the convert daughter of a Pagan priest.

But that still brings in the question why the safe guard of the Law of Moses to preserve a bloodline that was just going to be muddied anyways?

Galatians 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The pure bloodline is important. Joseph's wife was an Israelite. Check out the real Jewish history. Israelites ruled in Egypt with Eber and his relatives. This is why Abram was in Egypt and his father Terah and his grandfather Nehor.

[brightpath]

If the Davidic blood line was being so safely guarded by the Lord as the OT makes it out to be and the Law of Moses was instituted to preserve the blood line pure until the Savior should come?

Then how in the world does a Gentile convert end up being the Great Grand Mother of Kind David and contaminating the blood line?

http://www.online-bible.org.uk/ruth/

Hmmm... now Israelites can have Gentile blood lines thus complicating the DNA issue all the More!

Also, Lot was the father of the Moabites. Lot was the nephew of Abram. So Lot was a Hebrew by lineage. David's lineage remained pure because Boaz was from the Tribe Of Judah and Ruth was a Hebrew(Moabite). Male Moabites were prohibited from mixing with the Israelites but the female Moabites were permitted to mix with Israelites as long as they converted to the religion first.

[ERayR]

Also, Lot was the father of the Moabites. Lot was the nephew of Abram. So Lot was a Hebrew by lineage. David's lineage remained pure because Boaz was from the Tribe Of Judah and Ruth was a Hebrew(Moabite). Male Moabites were prohibited from mixing with the Israelites but the female Moabites were permitted to mix with Israelites as long as they converted to the religion first.

Sorry but Josephs wife was not an Isrealite until she married Joseph. She was a Shemite (Semite)as was Joseph. She was not a descendent of Isreal but their families came from the same line from Noah. Shem.

[LeSellers]

Sorry but Josephs wife was not an Isrealite until she married Joseph. She was a Shemite (Semite)as was Joseph. She was not a descendent of Isreal but their families came from the same line from Noah. Shem.

Not necessarily. Joseph's wife, Asenath, was his niece, the daughter of Dinah (his half-sister) and her rapist/lover(?) Sechem.

How many of his direct descendants went to Egypt with Israel? The Bible specifically says it was 70, and names all of them (it does not include his wives, only their offspring; Gen 46, see particularly vv. 26, 27, where 66 + 3 = 70, unless you count Asenath as a fourth descendant already in Egypt), but the list seems to be missing one name (one of Leah's grandchildren). But a careful reading leads one to see that Asenath is subtly part of that list. If so, she is not just a Semite, but an Israelite, too.

Lehi

[Zakuska]

Also, Lot was the father of the Moabites. Lot was the nephew of Abram. So Lot was a Hebrew by lineage. David's lineage remained pure because Boaz was from the Tribe Of Judah and Ruth was a Hebrew(Moabite). Male Moabites were prohibited from mixing with the Israelites but the female Moabites were permitted to mix with Israelites as long as they converted to the religion first.

So thats why Phinehas skewered the Moabitis and the Israelite.

Israel was the chosen seed thus the Davidic King, but Ruth was a non-Israelite convert.

Ruth

Ruth. This book is the history of the family of Elimelech, who in the days of the Judges, because of a famine, went away from Bethlehem to dwell in the land of Moab. There his two sons married Moabite wives, and died, as did also their father. Naomi, the mother, returned to Bethlehem, and Ruth, one of her widowed daughters-in-law, came with her. Ruth, when gleaning in the field of Boaz, a kinsman of Elimelech, found favor with him. Naomi planned that Boaz should marry Ruth, and he was ready to do so, if a nearer kinsman, to whom the right belonged according to the law in Deut. 25:5

[katherine the great]

The Bible says nothing about the lineage of Asenath. That story about her being Dinah's daughter was just something made up centuries later by Jewish priests or Rabbis who did not want to admit that Joseph married an Egyptian. She was the daughter of a priest of On--not the dead Shechem. It's an absurd story. It's apocryphal. It's very obvious that throughout Old Testament times, Jews married Canaanites. There was no "pure" bloodline. Judah married a Canaanite and Joseph married an Egyptian. I don't think it says where the wives of the other 10 brothers came from, but they had to get their wives from someplace! I can only imagine how many Israelites married Egyptians during their hundreds of years in Egypt. Throughout all of this time, all of the people the Hebrews took as slaves, (and if you read the Bible you will see that there had to be many thousands) became members of that tribe. To think that those millions of people could all trace every line of their ancestry back to Abraham is simply ridiculous. Every tribe had many thousands of people who were not ONLY descended from Abraham. They were racially mixed, from the third generation on.

[brightpath]

The Bible says nothing about the lineage of Asenath. That story about her being Dinah's daughter was just something made up centuries later by Jewish priests or Rabbis who did not want to admit that Joseph married an Egyptian. She was the daughter of a priest of On--not the dead Shechem. It's an absurd story. It's apocryphal. It's very obvious that throughout Old Testament times, Jews married Canaanites. There was no "pure" bloodline. Judah married a Canaanite and Joseph married an Egyptian. I don't think it says where the wives of the other 10 brothers came from, but they had to get their wives from someplace! I can only imagine how many Israelites married Egyptians during their hundreds of years in Egypt. Throughout all of this time, all of the people the Hebrews took as slaves, (and if you read the Bible you will see that there had to be many thousands) became members of that tribe. To think that those millions of people could all trace every line of their ancestry back to Abraham is simply ridiculous. Every tribe had many thousands of people who were not ONLY descended from Abraham. They were racially mixed, from the third generation on.

Asenath was an Israelite. Do not dismiss the lost books of the Bible and Jewish History. Eber and his descendants ruled Egypt and this explains why Abram, Terah, and Nehor were there. God would not permit Joseph to marry outside his race. The children of Israel did not mix with the Egyptians while they were there. When Israelites took slaves they set them apart by divisions. Each Tribe camped with their own including the slaves. This is why God led away the 10 tribes to keep their blood pure and not mix with Gentile blood.

[brightpath]

So thats why Phinehas skewered the Moabitis and the Israelite.

Israel was the chosen seed thus the Davidic King, but Ruth was a non-Israelite convert.

Thus the "pure blood" line was indeed contaminated.

Ruth was a Hebrew(Moabite)>Moab>Lot>Haran>Terah Later on down the line the Moabites mixed with the Gentiles and their blood was mixed. Israelites looked down on the Moabites because the birthright and covenant continued through Abraham lineage, even though the Moabites were Hebrews through Abraham's brother Haran.

[katherine the great]

Asenath was an Israelite. Do not dismiss the lost books of the Bible and Jewish History. Eber and his descendants ruled Egypt and this explains why Abram, Terah, and Nehor were there. God would not permit Joseph to marry outside his race. The children of Israel did not mix with the Egyptians while they were there. When Israelites took slaves they set them apart by divisions. Each Tribe camped with their own including the slaves. This is why God led away the 10 tribes to keep their blood pure and not mix with Gentile blood.

I do discount them because I consider them largely to be "spin" and I don't believe for a minute that the Israelites were EVER a non mixed people after Jacob. The Bible is quite clear on this. I also don't believe that the Lord "led away" the ten tribes in order to keep their blood lines "pure." They were EXILED and scattered because of their wickedness. There was probably not a "pure" Israelite among them. Just out of curiosity, are you affiliated with Aryan Nations?

[brightpath]

I do discount them because I consider them largely to be "spin" and I don't believe for a minute that the Israelites were EVER a non mixed people after Jacob. The Bible is quite clear on this. I also don't believe that the Lord "led away" the ten tribes in order to keep their blood lines "pure." They were EXILED and scattered because of their wickedness. There was probably not a "pure" Israelite among them. Just out of curiosity, are you affiliated with Aryan Nations?

I think the Jews would know more about their history then you would. Asenath was an Israelite, just like Ruth was a Hebrew through the Moabites. Lamanites that haven't mixed with Gentiles are a pure blood too. Example:Comanche>Native American>Lamanite>Lehi>Manasseh>Joseph>Jacob=Pure Israelite. So it is possible to be a pure blood. Same with the Jews who haven't mixed with Gentile blood. Christ stated the Father led the 10 tribes away. The scattering refers to the tribes of Joseph and Judah being scattered. Refer to the title page of the BOM. God through Mormon said the BOM was written to the Lamanites(Joseph) first then Jew(Judah)and Gentiles(the rest of the world). If the 10 tribes were present then he would have included them in the title page.

[katherine the great]

I think the Jews would know more about their history then you would. Asenath was an Israelite, just like Ruth was a Hebrew through the Moabites. Lamanites that haven't mixed with Gentiles are a pure blood too. Example:Comanche>Native American>Lamanite>Lehi>Manasseh>Joseph>Jacob=Pure Israelite. So it is possible to be a pure blood. Same with the Jews who haven't mixed with Gentile blood. Christ stated the Father led the 10 tribes away. The scattering refers to the tribes of Joseph and Judah being scattered. Refer to the title page of the BOM. God through Mormon said the BOM was written to the Lamanites(Joseph) first then Jew(Judah)and Gentiles(the rest of the world). If the 10 tribes were present then he would have included them in the title page.

There is no such thing as pure blood. Take a genetics class.

[ERayR]

Lamanites that haven't mixed with Gentiles are a pure blood too. Example:Comanche>Native American>Lamanite>Lehi>Manasseh>Joseph>Jacob=Pure Israelite. So it is possible to be a pure blood.

More like this:

Lamanites that haven't mixed with Gentiles are a pure blood too. Example:Comanche>Native American>Lamanite>others who were already here & Lehi>Manasseh>Joseph>Jacob=Pure Israelite. So it is possible to be a pure blood.

[USU78]

I prefer mudbloods myself.

[daz2]

Only five women are listed in Matthew's genealogy of Jesus. Except for Mary, all appear to be from outside Israel. Some scholars think they were included in the genealogy to emphasize that Jesus' message is universal, not limited to pure Israel.

Mathematical geneticists tell us that everyone living today is almost certainly descended from everyone living (with posterity) 1000 to 2000 years ago. I suppose anything is possible, but it is almost inconceivable that Jesus, or anyone else then, was descended exclusively from Israel.

Similarly, assuming Cain was the first black African, virtually everyone is his descendent today. The odds of anyone's not being a descendent are miniscule. If Brigham Young (and the rationale offered by some for the pre-1978 priesthood/temple race/lineage practice) were correct (the "one drop" theory), that would mean no one could hold the priesthood (pre-1978) or participate in temple ordinances.

[brightpath]

There is no such thing as pure blood. Take a genetics class.

Wow you are really out there. So how can you claim you are from Ephraim? You are not a pure blood or even a half blood. So how can us members of the church claim we are from Ephraim? Natives that haven't mixed with Gentiles blood are pure bloods.

[brightpath]

More like this:

Lamanites that haven't mixed with Gentiles are a pure blood too. Example:Comanche>Native American>Lamanite>others who were already here & Lehi>Manasseh>Joseph>Jacob=Pure Israelite. So it is possible to be a pure blood.

Who was already here? God said America was reserved for the chosen lineage(Jaredites) and Israel. Only 3 groups of people were present in America. Lehi's seed, the Mulekites, and the Jaradites. There were no Gentiles present until Israel rejected the gospel then God allowed the Gentiles(English-French-Spanish-Portuguese-Black slaves) to invade America.

[katherine the great]

Wow you are really out there. So how can you claim you are from Ephraim? You are not a pure blood or even a half blood. So how can us members of the church claim we are from Ephraim? Natives that haven't mixed with Gentiles blood are pure bloods.

Maybe you need to define "pure blood." Do you claim that those who are declared from the tribe of Ephraim have no other ancestors than Ephraim? We claim to be from Ephraim because we either share his blood (one ONE or more line) or else we have been symbolically adopted into his tribe because we have been foreordained to participate in the mission of his tribe. Please read these scriptures and then tell me how you can possibly claim that ancient Israelites did not ever marry foreign people. Deut. 21: 10--14, Judges 3: 5--7, Numbers 25:1 and Numbers 11:4. Then please read the entire Old Testament and notice that the frequent apostasy of ancient Israel always happened when they intermarried with the Canaanites and started worshipping their gods, and then were plagued with something terrible, and then repented and then were pronounced clean and again accepted by God and explain how you think they could do that without retaining any of the genes they inherited from their thousands (probably millions) of Canaanite ancestors. We can go back further than even Abraham. Even if you literally believe that the billions of people on the planet descended from three men and their wives who lived approximately six thousand years ago (which I suspect you do), who do you think Shem's children married? Their own brothers and sisters or their cousins? I'm guessing their cousins who would have been fathered by Japheth and Ham.