Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Thanks - I was wondering if psalm 16 might have been about his deliverance from Saul and future as king rather than later developments.Also, a while back there was a thread explaining how the differences between exaltation and salvation developed over time in our theology. Any idea what the timing on that was? Seems like that could impact our understanding of the verse in D&C 132.edit: Certainly seems that using these verses for doctrinal support is unwise since we can't correlate much with the narrative of David's life.Timing: No.I would agree... simply because the verse seems to be prophecying of the Ressurection more than anything else.At least thats the context its used in, in Acts 2. What David had learned was that Christ would ransom everyone from the grave.However, as BCSpace noted earlier, David missed the ressurection at the time of Christ per Acts 2. (He was still in his sephlecure) So it appears he has been reserved in chains for the judgement of the last day after he has paid the upmost farthing for stealing his neighbors wife. Read this last night.... and it might be pertinant.Luke 1436 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.39
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Timing: No.I would agree... simply because the verse seems to be prophecying of the Ressurection more than anything else.At least thats the context its used in, in Acts 2. What David had learned was that Christ would ransom everyone from the grave.However, as BCSpace noted earlier, David missed the ressurection at the time of Christ per Acts 2. (He was still in his sephlecure) So it appears he has been reserved in chains for the judgement of the last day after he has paid the upmost farthing for stealing his neighbors wife. Read this last night.... and it might be pertinant.Luke 1436 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.39
daz2 Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 We know that God is not opposed to playing word games (see D&C 19 about eternal punishment). Perhaps God likes, or likes God's servants to use language that keeps us afraid, that makes us think that there are significant limits on the power or reach of the Atonement. I.e., some, in the past, believed or taught that the only way for murder to be "forgiven" was through shedding or having shed one's own blood. Yet the First Presidency, in response to those thoughts, recently affirmed that "We believe in and teach the infinite and all-encompassing atonement of Jesus Christ, which makes forgiveness of sin and salvation possible for all people."Infinite means without limits, and in case there is confusion, all-encompassing means everything. This statement has been debated in the bloggernacle as to what it may mean in King David's case. http://www.wheatandtares.org/2010/06/24/king-david-and-the-doctrine-of-blood-atonement/President Packer has taught that "I repeat, save for the exception of the very few who defect to perdition, there is no habit, no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no apostasy, no crime exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness." In a footnote, President Packer acknowledges, however, "Forgiveness does not, however, necessarily assure exaltation, as is the case with David (see D&C 132:38
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Though not easy to repent of, murder is NOT unforgivable for those with the Light of the Gospel...Alma 39:6For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.Not easy, but possible.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Though not easy to repent of, murder is NOT unforgivable for those with the Light of the Gospel...Not easy, but possible.I think this goes along with the book of Hebrews.Heb 61 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.3 And this will we do, if God permit.4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.I think we see these briers and thorns springing up on such boards as the Trailer Park and the SLCTRIB when ever a Mormon related article comes up.Heb 1026 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses
Lightbearer Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Though not easy to repent of, murder is NOT unforgivable for those with the Light of the Gospel...Not easy, but possible.Actually for those in the Church it is not:(D&C 42:18) "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come." This is what is meant by David losing his exaltation, while he may eventually be redeemed from hell, as far as the Celestial Kingdom is concerned he cannot go there worlds without end.
nicolasconnault Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Though not easy to repent of, murder is NOT unforgivable for those with the Light of the Gospel...Not easy, but possible.The scripture doesn't say it's possible. Just because something is termed "not easy" doesn't make it possible. I would find not find it easy to lift 2 tons of rock with my bear hands. Still not possible
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 The scripture doesn't say it's possible. Just because something is termed "not easy" doesn't make it possible. I would find not find it easy to lift 2 tons of rock with my bear hands. Still not possible With God anything is Possible.Faith can move mountains after all.
nicolasconnault Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 With God anything is Possible.Faith can move mountains after all.The impossibility is not on God's side, to grant forgiveness, but on the murderer's side, to obtain it. However, I am of the opinion that even murderers can be cleansed by the atonement of Christ. Since there are degrees in "murderousness" and countless factors involved in murderous behaviour, it doesn't make sense that a single behaviour would be a one-way-ticket to unforgivablility.
DispensatorMysteriorum Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Since Bathsheba was Uriahs wife first... she will be his in eternity. What makes you think she will belong to anyone in eternity? Sounds like she may be nearly as culpable as David in their misstep(s).
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 What makes you think she will belong to anyone in eternity? Sounds like she may be nearly as culpable as David in their misstep(s).Well she could very well expect that her husband would turn up dead being in the war and such. When he's dead shes released from the Law. Does the story tell us she knew David was going to kill her husband? At what point did she know he was dead?
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 The impossibility is not on God's side, to grant forgiveness, but on the murderer's side, to obtain it. However, I am of the opinion that even murderers can be cleansed by the atonement of Christ. Since there are degrees in "murderousness" and countless factors involved in murderous behaviour, it doesn't make sense that a single behaviour would be a one-way-ticket to unforgivablility.RE: various levels in hell.Psalms 86:13For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.Deuteronomy 32:22For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.Mark 12:40Which devour widows
daz2 Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 I think infinite and all encompassing mean infinite and all encompassing. Whether or not a particular forgiven sinner will be exalted I leave to God. I am curious why people think that the Atonement can cleanse (sufficient for exaltation) the sin of murder for someone not LDS, but not cleanse (sufficient for exaltation) someone who has been baptized LDS. Why would God choose to limit the power of the Atonement in the case of those who are LDS? Why should baptism impose a limit on the forgiveability of future sins? Does God not love His children who are LDS as much as He loves those who are not? Do we really mean that there is a "point of no return" (apart from defecting to perdition)?Again, I prefer leaving forgiveness and exaltation to God, while believing that the Atonement is all encompassing and infinite.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 I think infinite and all encompassing mean infinite and all encompassing. Whether or not a particular forgiven sinner will be exalted I leave to God. I am curious why people think that the Atonement can cleanse (sufficient for exaltation) the sin of murder for someone not LDS, but not cleanse (sufficient for exaltation) someone who has been baptized LDS. Why would God choose to limit the power of the Atonement in the case of those who are LDS? Why should baptism impose a limit on the forgiveability of future sins? Does God not love His children who are LDS as much as He loves those who are not? Do we really mean that there is a "point of no return" (apart from defecting to perdition)?Again, I prefer leaving forgiveness and exaltation to God, while believing that the Atonement is all encompassing and infinite.I think this answers your question...Heb 1026 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses
mercyngrace Posted January 13, 2011 Author Posted January 13, 2011 Is it possible that David losing his exaltation is (also?) representative of the bondage of Israel?1 Kings 11:39 sounds a lot like Psalm 16And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.The JST says:And for the transgression of David, and also for the people, I have rent the kingdom, and for this I will afflict
Zakuska Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Is it possible that David losing his exaltation is (also?) representative of the bondage of Israel?1 Kings 11:39 sounds a lot like Psalm 16And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.The JST says:And for the transgression of David, and also for the people, I have rent the kingdom, and for this I will afflict
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Actually for those in the Church it is not:This is what is meant by David losing his exaltation, while he may eventually be redeemed from hell, as far as the Celestial Kingdom is concerned he cannot go there worlds without end.I choose to believe the Book of Mormon and the power of the Atonement over the repentant.
nicolasconnault Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I choose to believe the Book of Mormon and the power of the Atonement over the repentant.Repentance is not a dichotomy.
mfbukowski Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 What is the path of life? And does the phrase refer to David or Christ, in your opinion?I think the path of life is the way of Christ- basically the "turn the other cheek" philosophy taught during Jesus' ministry.I think this is borne out by the Didache, the first part of which describes the "Way of Life" which is very very much like the gospels. This first portion of the Didache is thought by scholars to be much older than the first century- it is believed to be a Jewish document- and so that frame of reference might go back as far as David- I certainly don't know that one either way. But the Didache was apparently known to Matthew before he wrote his gospel according to Wikipedia.Later, the Way of Life is contrasted with the Way of Death. The Didache fascinates me because it is presented almost as a philosophical treatise on morality- it cites no authority but itself; the tone overall seems to just be laying out the facts of life: "this is the way it is".But this might relate to your "path of life" phrase.Perhaps what David is saying in the psalm is that the Lord has shown him the path of forgiveness which will be taught by Christ in the future. He has "seen the vision" of repentance and the atonement which is to come, and is comforted by it, and assured that he will have some level of glory, even if not the one he once might have merited. That's the way I see it anyway!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DidacheChapter 1. The Two Ways; The First CommandmentThere are two ways, one of life and one of death; but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, your neighbour as yourself; and all things whatsoever you would should not occur to you, do not also do to another. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there, if you love those who love you? Do not also the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone gives you a blow upon your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two. If someone takes away your cloak, give him also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able.http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
mercyngrace Posted January 14, 2011 Author Posted January 14, 2011 Perhaps what David is saying in the psalm is that the Lord has shown him the path of forgiveness which will be taught by Christ in the future. He has "seen the vision" of repentance and the atonement which is to come, and is comforted by it, and assured that he will have some level of glory, even if not the one he once might have merited. That's the way I see it anyway!Looks like I know what I'll be researching this weekend... Thanks, mfb, fascinating ideas all.
Cold Steel Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I would think most kings probably don't make the Celestial Kingdom. Even Solomon, David's son, married foreign women whose cultures butchered babies as part of their religious festivals. Of course, there is some evidence that Solomon suffered from dementia in the latter part of his life. Whether that was because of his sins or whether his sins were because of his dementia I don't know. At any rate, David's soul will remain in hell throughout the Millennium; however, he will be forgiven and resurrected to a Telestial glory at the end thereof. Remember, he not only murdered, but committed adultery. Like all murderers, he will eventually be released from hell. But as the New Testament tells us, no murderer has eternal life abiding within him. .
katherine the great Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I would think most kings probably don't make the Celestial Kingdom. Even Solomon, David's son, married foreign women whose cultures butchered babies as part of their religious festivals. Of course, there is some evidence that Solomon suffered from dementia in the latter part of his life. Whether that was because of his sins or whether his sins were because of his dementia I don't know. At any rate, David's soul will remain in hell throughout the Millennium; however, he will be forgiven and resurrected to a Telestial glory at the end thereof. Remember, he not only murdered, but committed adultery. Like all murderers, he will eventually be released from hell. But as the New Testament tells us, no murderer has eternal life abiding within him. .This is pure speculation on your part. Only God knows the real story. All that has been revealed to us is that he lost his exaltation. David's final destination is only known to God. Maybe the hell he suffered on earth for his sins is his punishment.
Rob Osborn Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I am not sure where we get that David will suffer for his sins and then be resurrected to a telestial glory. I have heard this many times yet I fail to see where this comes from the scriptures. All we are told is that he lost his exaltation and committed an unpardonable sin. For all we know he will have his part in the lake of fire and brimstone "after" the millennium.
frankenstein Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 we do know where murderers will go.we do know where sons of perdition go.did david commit murder, yes.is david a son of perdition, we do not know, and do not have any reason to believe as much. so process of elimination, based on where we are told murderers will be, a reasonable statement would be david will be the telestial kingdom.
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