David lost his exaltation

[mercyngrace]

ugh....go back to page 3 and start reading.

I stated "we do know where the sons of perdition go"

Mercyngrace claims we do not know, she also does not accept the numerous Church publications on the issue. she seemingly is using section 76 as her foundation for not knowing where sons of perdition go.

Frank,

Isn't section 76 a church publication?

Also knowing where they will go for a time is not knowing where they will end up which is what I was referring to. In the same way, I don't consider the spirit world our ultimate destination. We know where they will be for an unspecified time but not where they will ultimately end up.

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

Just to be clear, I don't pretend to know "the end thereof". Some people talk about the possibility of SOPs being redeemed eventually, etc. By my reading, all that is unknowable. All we know is that they are cast out to suffer "endless" punishment which isn't necessarily without end. I'm okay with having more questions than answers - it doesn't bother me one bit. That's because I have complete trust that God can and will complete His work to His satisfaction. Now why basic church manuals choose to avoid the muddy issue by casting it in simplest terms, I can only presume, is to teach fundamentals. Some things, after all (again from D&C 76) can only be taught by revelation.

"Neither is man capable to make [the visions of the eternities] known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love Him and purify themselves before Him. To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves."

vs. 116-117

[mercyngrace]

Did he even write that particular psalm?

It's credited to him - one of 73, iirc.

[mercyngrace]

i will venture to say that when one hears the word "endless" or "everlasting" in a religious context one thinks without end. So I do see how the Lord would mean something different, more importantly how one can say "The Lords does not mean without an end"

And when that happens with a member of the church, it's a good idea to point them toward D&C 19.

[frankenstein]

Frank,

Isn't section 76 a church publication?

Also knowing where they will go for a time is not knowing where they will end up which is what I was referring to. In the same way, I don't consider the spirit world our ultimate destination. We know where they will be for an unspecified time but not where they will ultimately end up.

mecryngrace, please read section 76 starting in verse 30 and stop at 38

it is more than clear that we do infact know the fate/destination of the sons of perdition.

[mercyngrace]

mecryngrace, please read section 76 starting in verse 30 and stop at 38

it is more than clear that we do infact know the fate/destination of the sons of perdition.

Why stop before the section on sons of perdition stops? You're asking me to only do a partial reading. The section pertaining to perdition and his sons is contained in vs. 25-49. You're asking me to ignore a substantial portion.

Twice in the section, in verses you want me to skip over, we are told that we cannot know their ultimate fate:

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

and again

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

Now, I'm not sure I buy it, but some have proposed a correlation between the use of the phrase "vessels of wrath" in verse 33 and the vessels described by Paul (Romans 9) and Jeremiah (18)...

20 ...Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

In other words, He will be gracious to whom He will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom He will shew mercy.

3 Then I went down to the potter

[frankenstein]

mercyngrace,

you do not understand what you reading then.

what you are saying is that the endless and everlasting verse complete negate verse 30 - 38. It is dumbfounding that you actively deny what you can read in black and white.

35Having ^adenied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having ^bcrucified him unto themselves and put him to an open ^cshame.

36These are they who shall go away into the ^alake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels

[TAO]

Hey mercy, I would suggest that the sons of perdition don't just have endless torment... I suggest that they are stuck in the second death for eternity.

There are others with endless torment besides the sons of perdition, and I think they constitute why endless torment means God's torment. But endless torment is only without end for the sons of perdition because they are stuck in the second death.

[mercyngrace]

Hey mercy, I would suggest that the sons of perdition don't just have endless torment... I suggest that they are stuck in the second death for eternity.

There are others with endless torment besides the sons of perdition, and I think they constitute why endless torment means God's torment. But endless torment is only without end for the sons of perdition because they are stuck in the second death.

That's entirely possible, Tao. My position is consistent - I simply think we don't know their final disposition.

[mercyngrace]

so which is it? Did Joseph Smith slip up when he completely negated verse 35 - 38? As far as the scriptures are concerned, we do infact know where sons of perdition go. More importantly, based on the Teachings of the LDS Church, we do know where sons of perdition go. I can understand somewhat your denial of the Bible dictionary, the True to the Faith Manual, and the Gospel Principles manual, but to deny the scripture or to try and skate around them is terribly perplexing.

Frank,

I don't believe Joseph Smith negated verses 35-38 because I don't believe Joseph Smith wrote them. I believe the Lord wrote them. Your persistent attempts to paint me as something less than a faithful LDS for trying to reconcile all the verses in section 76 rather than relying on a few, only damages your own credibility on this issue.

You may wonder why, when I posted the quotes from Paul and Jeremiah, why I said I was unconvinced of this teaching that the sons of perdition could be restored at some point. I point you to this quote in the Institute Manual:

It appears that in the early days of the Restoration some attempted to teach the destiny of the sons of perdition. The Prophet Joseph Smith responded by writing:

[mercyngrace]

Just thought I'd add here what the Institute manual says about "endless punishment". Remember that endless in D&C 76:44 is linked by footnote to D&C 19:6.

Regarding D&C 19:6, the manual quotes Elder Talmage from General Conference, April 1930:

[frankenstein]

what i think of the Joseph Smith quote is that he was saying "Stop preaching that the sons of perdition will be restored". which I have never claimed.

what I think, is the verses 30 - 38 are very clear.

what I think, is that numerous Official LDS publications state the sons of perdition will be in what we, the LDS consider outdarkness.

therefore, because the LDS Church has Officially published where the sons of perdition will go, we, the LDS, can say "We do know where the sons of perdition go."

[mercyngrace]

what i think of the Joseph Smith quote is that he was saying "Stop preaching that the sons of perdition will be restored". which I have never claimed.

what I think, is the verses 30 - 38 are very clear.

what I think, is that numerous Official LDS publications state the sons of perdition will be in what we, the LDS consider outdarkness.

therefore, because the LDS Church has Officially published where the sons of perdition will go, we, the LDS, can say "We do know where the sons of perdition go."

The JS quote also says "their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof".

They certainly pass through hell en route to their final destination, whatever that is.

[Cold Steel]

This is pure speculation on your part. Only God knows the real story. All that has been revealed to us is that he lost his exaltation. David's final destination is only known to God. Maybe the hell he suffered on earth for his sins is his punishment.

I don't see any documentation on your part that would back up your position. God, himself, said David was guilty of murder and had lost his exaltation. All those inheriting a Telestial position will not be resurrected until following the Millennium. The resurrection of the Just will happen at the beginning of the Millennium and throughout the Millennium. Look up "resurrection" and "telestial" in McConkie's Mormon Doctrine. For that matter, look up "King David."

McConkie also said: "One of the saddest stories in all sacred writing is that of King David. Through long years of devotion and obedience he lived as a man after the Lord's own heart, and then came 'the case of Uriah and his wife,' and as a consequence, 'he hath fallen from his exaltation,' and shall not attain the celestial inheritance that otherwise would have been his."

Hoyt Brewster also writes:

While the worthy Saints among the living are "quickened and...caught up to meet him," it seems reasonable to believe that not all will pass through death and resurrection at this time. In order for mortal children to be born during the Millennium, they must be begotten by mortal parents. Much is yet to be revealed regarding these matters.

Those who are resurrected after the morning of the first resurrection are "those who are Christ's at his coming." (D&C 88:99.) President Joseph Fielding Smith explained their status: "In this resurrection will come forth those of the terrestrial order, who were not worthy to be caught up to meet him, but who are worthy to come forth to enjoy the millennial reign." (DS, 2:296-97.)

Only those worthy of celestial or terrestrial glory will inhabit the earth during the Millennium. All others must wait for the resurrection of the unjust when the thousand years of peace will be disrupted for a little season prior to the final judgment. Until then, the wicked and unrepentant remain unressurected. President Joseph Fielding Smith noted: "It is decreed that the unrighteous shall have to spend their time during this thousand years in the prison house prepared for them where they can repent and cleanse themselves through the things which they shall suffer." (DS, 3:60.) Such, for example, will be the status of King David, whose adulterous relationship with Bathsheba led him to take the life of the faithful Uriah. (See TPJS, pp. 188-89.) Hoyt W. Brewster, Jr., Behold, I Come Quickly: The Last Days and Beyond, p.206 - 207

There are many in the church who would like to give David a pass, and they hold out the hope that some way, some how, he'll be blessed with forgiveness that others are denied. But God is no respecter of persons, and though David was dear to his heart, he really has no choice but to judge him as other men are judged. And no, this isn't speculation on my part, because I, too, would like to give David a pass. But the gospel is clear in doctrine, and it was cold blooded murder on his part. He looked Uriah in the face and handed him his own death warrant. And he slept with Uriah's wife not once, but repeatedly. I know of no gospel principle that might put David in a category from any other murderer. If you think I'm off base, please tell me where.

.