mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 In our Gospel Doctrine manuals we teach that David, because he had Uriah killed, lost his exaltation. The quote used in the OT manual is:President Marion G. Romney said:
frankenstein Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 i am not a grammatorian, but from what I understand Hebrew does not use punctuation.so is David just stating fact i.e. the right hand of God.or is David stating that he will exalted. Lets just take "not leave my soul in hell", the LDS teach that in one form hell is a temporary abode post-mortal not Heaven world, from which one can be released; David could be declaring what the LDS believe.
nicolasconnault Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 In our Gospel Doctrine manuals we teach that David, because he had Uriah killed, lost his exaltation. The quote used in the OT manual is:President Marion G. Romney said:
Lightbearer Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 In our Gospel Doctrine manuals we teach that David, because he had Uriah killed, lost his exaltation. The quote used in the OT manual is:President Marion G. Romney said:
seriously honestly Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Not just in the manual, in the latter-day scriptures:As far as not leaving his soul in hell, that is quite a different thing from Exaltation. As I understand it David will probably receive the Telestial Kingdom of glory because murder is unforgivable (as far as those who are members of the Church) thus it they receive any glory it will not be the Celestial Kingdom.The Lord forgave David of his sin though.
Lightbearer Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 The Lord forgave David of his sin though.Yes, but that did not change the fact that he lost his exaltation. He will be "saved from hell" in that he will not dwell with Satan for eternity (son of perdition) but he will receive a lower degree of glory according to LDS scripture.
Vex Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 The Lord forgave David of his sin though.From whence cometh this assertion?
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Did he write this particular psalm after the Uriah incident?Good question. I don't think we know for sure but this same section I quoted is in Acts 2 referencing the resurrection of Christ rather than the redemption of David.I'm not sure what to make of it. The chapter heading for Ps. 16 indicates the verses relate to David, that his soul will not be left in hell, but Acts reads as if these same verses were about Christ.
seriously honestly Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 From whence cometh this assertion?2 Samuel 12:13-14
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Not just in the manual, in the latter-day scriptures:As far as not leaving his soul in hell, that is quite a different thing from Exaltation. As I understand it David will probably receive the Telestial Kingdom of glory because murder is unforgivable (as far as those who are members of the Church) thus it they receive any glory it will not be the Celestial Kingdom.Yeah. I get that Lightbearer. My question is how we reconcile these seemingly contradictory verses. In other words, what is it saying in Psalms?
TAO Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 MnG, it is saying he will receive eternal life, but not exaltation. Path of life would fit that I think...
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 MnG, it is saying he will receive eternal life, but not exaltation. Path of life would fit that I think...According to the Aaronic PH manual "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives."Do you mean immortality? Or is there something else I'm missing?
Lightbearer Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Yeah. I get that Lightbearer. My question is how we reconcile these seemingly contradictory verses. In other words, what is it saying in Psalms?Not to cross post with one of Consig's complaints, but the LDS edition's chapter heading states:A Messianic Psalm of David
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 2 Samuel 12:13-14This seems to be a reference to David not being immediately put to death as would have been the punishment under the Mosaic law rather than a reference to forgiveness. (Deut. 19:10-13)
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Not to cross post with one of Consig's complaints, but the LDS edition's chapter heading states:Seems like a good explanation to me.What is the path of life? And does the phrase refer to David or Christ, in your opinion?
BCSpace Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Not just in the manual, in the latter-day scriptures:And in the NT:For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,Acts 2:34David missed the resurrection (Matthew 27:42-53)
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Like Saul before him... Davids wives were given to his son Absalom and they were defiled before all Israel on the highest tower for the world to see.2 Sam 1210 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.Notice that allthough David did not die for his sin, he paid a dear price. His wives would be given to another.This was fufilled when David was chased out of Jerusalem and his son, Absalom usurped the throne.2 Samuel 15:1616 And the king went forth, and all his household after him. And the king left ten women, which were concubines, to keep the house....31
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Zak,Thanks for the references. I'm familiar with the story and why we believe David lost his exaltation. What I'm asking about is what David means in Psalm 16. I'm not asking whether or not he lost his exaltation or why we teach that he did. I'm asking what David seems to believe based on those verses in psalm 16. Paul co-opts the verses to teach about Christ in Acts 2 and 13. But except for the line about not seeing corruption, all the translations I read have David speaking in the first person about his own redemption. Is there some other meaning for "path of life"? Some other interpretation of "fulness of joy"? Or is David speaking about Christ's resurrection throughout the passage? Or as Nicolas suggests, is there a correlation to an earlier period in David's life making these verses irrelevant after Uriah's murder?The NIV reads like this:because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.I heard this verse used to justify our belief in a temporary hell in the spirit world (probably used it that way myself) and that appears to be wrong since other translations refer specifically to the grave. I'd like to understand the text so that I am not misusing it. So far, no one has answered the question I'm asking. I may be asking it badly or there may just not be a good answer. I don't know...
nicolasconnault Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Good question. I don't think we know for sure but this same section I quoted is in Acts 2 referencing the resurrection of Christ rather than the redemption of David.I'm not sure what to make of it. The chapter heading for Ps. 16 indicates the verses relate to David, that his soul will not be left in hell, but Acts reads as if these same verses were about Christ.A quick search on the Internet yielded nothing on Psalm 16. Some dates are given for several Psalms (e.g. http://www.bibletimeline.info/psalms/1.htm) but not this one.
TAO Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 According to the Aaronic PH manual "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives."Do you mean immortality? Or is there something else I'm missing?Yah, I meant immortality.
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 A quick search on the Internet yielded nothing on Psalm 16. Some dates are given for several Psalms (e.g. http://www.bibletimeline.info/psalms/1.htm) but not this one.I'm coming up empty, too. I've read several commentaries tonight and it looks like we just don't know enough about the psalms to use them as doctrinal support in a meaningful way - certainly in the case of 16, maybe generally.
Rob Osborn Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 2 Samuel 12:13-14JST, 2 Samuel 12:13 (compare 2 Samuel 12:13)(David's grievous sin was not put away by God.) 13. And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath not put away thy sin that thou shalt not die.(JST | 2 Samuel 12:Entry - 13)The Lord says here that he remains unforgiven. David committed an unforgivable sin. In the D&C it states-39 David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:39)As of today, Davids sin of murder remains unforgiven.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 JST, 2 Samuel 12:13 (compare 2 Samuel 12:13)(David's grievous sin was not put away by God.)13. And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath not put away thy sin that thou shalt not die.(JST | 2 Samuel 12:Entry - 13)The Lord says here that he remains unforgiven. David committed an unforgivable sin. In the D&C it states-39 David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:39)As of today, Davids sin of murder remains unforgiven.Which would go along with Paul and murderers not inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Galatians 5:21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Zak,Thanks for the references. I'm familiar with the story and why we believe David lost his exaltation. What I'm asking about is what David means in Psalm 16. I'm not asking whether or not he lost his exaltation or why we teach that he did. I'm asking what David seems to believe based on those verses in psalm 16. Paul co-opts the verses to teach about Christ in Acts 2 and 13. But except for the line about not seeing corruption, all the translations I read have David speaking in the first person about his own redemption. Is there some other meaning for "path of life"? Some other interpretation of "fulness of joy"? Or is David speaking about Christ's resurrection throughout the passage? Or as Nicolas suggests, is there a correlation to an earlier period in David's life making these verses irrelevant after Uriah's murder?That was more directed too 'seriously honest' so that he/she could see that David wasn't completely forgiven. My guess is that since the Psalm is pretty early it was written before the incident with Urriah.We can pinpoint the timing of some of the Psalms... eg.1 Chronicles 167
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 That was more directed too 'seriously honest' so that he/she could see that David wasn't completely forgiven. My guess is that since the Psalm is pretty early it was written before the incident with Urriah.We can pinpoint the timing of some of the Psalms... eg.1 Chronicles 167
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