Polygamy in the CK

[staccato]

I just had lunch with a TBM female coworker the other day who believes that humans do not all share the same heavenly mother and the number of heavenly mothers may be as numerous as humans themselves.

But the vast majority of active mormon women I know resolutely put it on the shelf. Most will say that if that is required they will likely have grown into the idea by that time.

[SilverKnight]

I just had lunch with a TBM female coworker the other day who believes that humans do not all share the same heavenly mother and the number of heavenly mothers may be as numerous as humans themselves.

Was she in her 70s?

But the vast majority of active mormon women I know resolutely put it on the shelf.

I agree. None I know are really into the idea.

Most will say that if that is required they will likely have grown into the idea by that time.

A position not shared by younger LDS women I think.

Last Sunday School class I fielded a surprise polygamy question.

After the question was answered, one girl added "Polygamy is disgusting." and the other girls nodded in approval.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This one?

There is no end of eternity. But if you have one wife bearing eternally as compared to three wives bearing eternally, your eternal output is always going to be larger in the triplicate number.

Edited for clarity.

YEs that one, however you asserted that one would have more glory than the other. THat is not necissarily true. I suppose we are just quibbling right now.

[kamenraider]

But I think D&C 131 is the best argument for polygamy being required for the highest degree of the CK. According to it, it is required to enter into the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage" to attain the highest degree of the CK, while those who don't get the lower two degrees of CK glory.

Some suggest that this is referring to monogamous Celestial marriage, but that would mean there has to be people who are worthy to enter the CK in every other way, but willingly choose to forfeit their blessings by refusing to enter into eternal monogamy. I can't imagine there ever being a person for whom this would be true, and given the timing of the revelation (1843), I suspect it is referring to the kind of marriage that some otherwise CK-ready people would have a serious problem with: polygamous celestial marriage.

I think you're right. D&C 131:1-4 says:

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

It is stated above that those in the other degrees of celestial glory besides the highest cannot have an increase.

This revelation, given to John Taylor on June 25 and 26, 1882 clarifies the idea further:

1. Question: Is the law of Celestial Marriage a law given to this nation

or to the world?

2. Answer: No, in no other sense than as the Gospel is given, and in

accordance with the laws thereof. So far as it is made known unto them as the

Gospel is made known unto them and is a part of the New and Everlasting

Covenant;

3. And it is only those who receive the Gospel that are able to, or

capable of, entering into this Covenant.

4. Have I not said through my servant, Joseph, that "all Kingdoms are

governed by law," and if they receive not the law of my Gospel, they cannot

participate in the blessings of celestial marriage, which pertains to my

elect.

5. No person, or people, or nation can enter into the principle of

celestial marriage unless they come in by me, saith the Lord, and obey the law

of my Gospel through the medium of him who is appointed unto this power,

as made known unto my people through my servant, Joseph, in a revelation on

"The eternity of the marriage covenant, including plurality of wives."

6. I have therein stated that "All those who have this law revealed unto

them must obey the same; for, behold I reveal unto you a new and an

everlasting Covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned;

for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory."

[Doc. & Cov. Sec. 132, Ver. 3, 4.]

7. Furthermore; "And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant,

it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth a

fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith

the Lord God." [Doc. & Cov. Sec. 132, Ver. 6.]

8. It is again written that "all Kingdoms have a law given." [Doc. & Cov.

Sec. 88, Ver. 36.]

9. The Celestial Kingdom, including the promise of eternal life pertains

to "the Church of the First Born, even of God the holiest of all, thro' Jesus

Christ his son;" [Doc. & Cov. Sec. 88, Ver. 5.]

10. Therefore, such must be sanctified from all unrighteousness that they

may be prepared for the Celestial Glory, "for he who is not able to abide the

law of a Celestial Kingdom, cannot abide a celestial glory;

11. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial Kingdom, cannot

abide a terrestrial glory.

12. He who cannot abide the law of a telestial Kingdom cannot abide a

telestial glory: therefore he is not meet for a Kingdom of glory; therefore he

must abide a Kingdom which is not a Kingdom of glory." [Doc. & Cov. Sec. 88,

Ver. 22, 24.]

13. Each of the persons inhabiting these several kingdom shall be

quickened by the same power that pertains to the Kingdom that they are

destined to inherit, whether Celestial, terrestrial, or telestial, and shall

receive of their respective glories.

14. And, again, it is written, "And, again, Verily I say unto you, that

which is governed by law is also preserved by law, and perfected and

sanctified by the same.

15. That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to

become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth

in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment."

[Doc. & Cov. Sec. 88, Ver. 34, 35.]

16. It is further written, speaking of Celestial Marriage, "And verily I

say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants,

contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections,

associations, or expectations that are not made, and entered into, and sealed

by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time

and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and Commandment

thro' the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold

this power, (and I have appointed unto my servant, Joseph, to hold this power

in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time, or on

whom this power and the keys of this Priesthood are conferred,) are of no

efficacy, virtue or force, in and after the resurrection from the dead;

17. For all contracts that are not made unto this end, have an end when

men are dead."

18. This law is a Celestial law and pertains to a Celestial Kingdom.

19. It is a new and everlasting Covenant, and appertains to thrones,

principalities, powers, dominions, and eternal increase in the Celestial

Kingdom of God.

20. You are not now sent to proclaim this principle to the United States,

nor the world; nor to urge it upon them.

21. It is not for them as a nation, or nations, only as many as accept

the law of my Gospel and are governed thereby.

22. Behold, if you were to preach this principle unto them and they said,

"We accept it," could you then administer it unto them? Verily, I say unto

you, Nay.

23. Have I not said, "Behold, mine house is a house of order," saith the

Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

24. Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my

name, or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed, and

will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my

Father ordained before the world was?

25. "I am the Lord thy God, and I give unto you this commandment, that no

man shall come unto the Father but by me, or by my word, which is my law,

saith the Lord;

26. And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men,

by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they

may be, that are not by me, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall

not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith

the Lord, your God;

27. For whatsoever things remain, are by me; and whatsoever things are

not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

28. "Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her

not by me, nor by my word; and he covenant with her so long as he is in the

world and she be with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when

they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not

bound by any law when they are out of the world." [Doc. & Cov. Sec. 132, Ver.

9-15.]

29. You ask, what shall we do?

30. Thus saith the Lord God, obey my law, and seek not to become a law

unto yourselves, nor trust to outside influences;

31. But seek in the way appointed to the Lord your God. Ye are my

spokesmen, I am your God; and as I have before said, I now again say,

Henceforth do as I shall command you.

32. Concerning the course taken by the United States, they have a right

to reject this law themselves; as they have a right to reject the Gospel; but

it is contrary to the provisions of the Constitution, which is the supreme law

of the land, for them to prohibit you from obeying it.

33. Therefore, abide in my law which I have revealed unto you, saith the

Lord God, and contend for your rights by every legal and constitutional method

and in accordance with the institutions, laws, and Constitution of the United

States.

34. Be humble, be faithful, be diligent, seek unto me and it shall be

made known unto you, from time to time, what my will is pertaining to this

matter.

35. I am the Lord Your God, hearken unto me, and obey my law, and your

enemies shall be confounded, and my Kingdom shall be victorious. Amen.

D&C 132:30-34, 62-63

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and for the fruit of

his loins--from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph--which were

to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and

his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out

of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye

were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the

promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the

works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law

and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my

Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And

why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many

people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the

promises.

...

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot

commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him;

therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall

be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed;

for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according

to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father

before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the

eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the

work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

There you have it -- straight from the horse's Lord's mouth!

This quote is not accepted by the church and you have been told to stop springing it on readers as if it was on countless occasions. You have no respect for the rules of this board and need to find another one.

[TAO]

1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?

Na, it's not mandatory, that it's not.

2. If so, do you have a problem with it?

I don't think it's mandatory.

3. How will it be possible when all the information I have show that men and women are born at very close to a 1:1 ratio?

I think women are ofttimes more righteous than men. In any case, they are born at a 48% to 52% ratio for men to women, although girls die more commonly at birth, making it closer to one to one. Also, as time passes on, due to the shrinking of the X chromosome, I have heard that the difference slowly grows.

But those are just thoughts. As said, it won't really matter - if it is practiced it will be for the just reason described in the one verse of D&C 132.

[dougtheavenger]

Not wanting to derail the 'Do Mormons teach that God was once a man?' thread I wanted to follow up on a topic that was raised that I've wondered about.

My questions are:

1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?

2. If so, do you have a problem with it?

3. How will it be possible when all the information I have show that men and women are born at very close to a 1:1 ratio?

There are 66 verses in D&C 132 and only 3 discuss polygamy. The main thrust of D&C 132 is eternal marriage which is required for exaltation. Nothing in D&C 132 or any other scripture says polygamy is required for exaltation. Furthermore, polygamy requires at least twice as many women than men to be worthy of exaltation, which can not be guaranteed, given that we all have our free agency.

[Mansquatch]

But I think D&C 131 is the best argument for polygamy being required for the highest degree of the CK. According to it, it is required to enter into the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage" to attain the highest degree of the CK, while those who don't get the lower two degrees of CK glory.

131 doesn't mention polygamy at all.

Some suggest that this is referring to monogamous Celestial marriage, but that would mean there has to be people who are worthy to enter the CK in every other way, but willingly choose to forfeit their blessings by refusing to enter into eternal monogamy.

131 doesn't say that there would be whole hosts of people that did this. It only says that if they didn't get sealed to someone they wouldn't make it.

I can't imagine there ever being a person for whom this would be true, and given the timing of the revelation (1843), I suspect it is referring to the kind of marriage that some otherwise CK-ready people would have a serious problem with: polygamous celestial marriage.

So since it was 1843 the Lord can't tell people that they need to be sealed and not have it refer to polygamy? Got it.

Obviously (and thankfully) we can define "celestial marriage" with a great degree of latitude, so the requirements can change with the social mores in which the Church finds itself.

The definition is not fluid at all. Celestial marriage = Being sealed for time and eternity.

Polygamy is an abomination when God has not commanded it for purposes of raising seed on earth. We have not been commanded to do it right now therefore it is as abhorrent as any other sexual sin. The way things are now in regard to polygamy is the default setting of God's command. Thus we can clearly say that polygamy is not required for exaltation. If not, then we would be doing sealings to multiple women in order to save our kindred dead, because they would not actually be saved by the limited work that we have done for each person.

[kamenraider]

There are 66 verses in D&C 132 and only 3 discuss polygamy.

Which three verses are you referring to?

The main thrust of D&C 132 is eternal marriage which is required for exaltation.

John Taylor had quite a different understanding than you do. Here is a letter he wrote, while he was Prophet and President of the Church, in answer to a question about this very subject:

Mrs. Malinda J. Merrill

Fremont, Piute Co., Utah

January 19, 1883

Dear Sister:

In regard to the question which you have proposed pertaining to plurality of wives you say:

[Lars Umlaut]

This quote is not accepted by the church and you have been told to stop springing it on readers as if it was on countless occasions. You have no respect for the rules of this board and need to find another one.

Thank you! That guy was seriously out of line for posting that! Is it possible to have his entire post deleted? Thanks!

[BCSpace]

1. Is Polygamy doctrine? - well at one time it was, now it isn't, but it will be in the Celestial Kingdom although on the LDS website under Polygamy it quotes President Hinkey as saying it isn't doctrinal.

I think to state that plural marriage isn't LDS doctrine is highly disingenuous. To state that God does not authorize plural marriage now is more accurate.

[BCSpace]

This quote is not accepted by the church and you have been told to stop springing it on readers as if it was on countless occasions. You have no respect for the rules of this board and need to find another one.

Thank you! That guy was seriously out of line for posting that! Is it possible to have his entire post deleted? Thanks!

I am not familiar with that quote. So the only thing wrong with it that I can see is that no reference was given and therefore the statement...

There you have it -- straight from the horse's Lord's mouth!

....is unsupported.

Was the John Taylor statement misquoted? Does it not exist? In what was it published? How do we know it's not doctrine or something that Let us not be so hasty as to meet intellectual dishonesty with intellectual dishonesty. In the future, one of us might meet an antiMormon in a dark alley using that quote and the more of us equipped to deal with it the better. Perhaps some of you are tired of it, but don't assume that everyone has seen it.

Edit: My mistake. It looks like he DID give a reference. So what is the problem?

[BCSpace]

1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?

I don't think so. But it might be unavoidable.

2. If so, do you have a problem with it?

No. LDS accept as doctrine that there has been God-authorized plural marriage in the past and that there may be in the future. One might even say that it is LDS doctrine that there is plural marriage in the future because the Church has not "unsealed" or otherwise nullified any of the plural marriages it has performed nor any of the sealings of women to men in which the man has already been sealed to another woman previously.

3. How will it be possible when all the information I have show that men and women are born at very close to a 1:1 ratio?

Some have argued that the ratio of righteous women to men is high. One can also wonder about the one third of the hosts of heaven that were cast out. Some argue that there are no female "sons of Perdition", therefore by that logic (which I don't necessarily agree with), one third of all possible males are out of the picture.

[Olavarria]

People just don't read section 132.

[Olavarria]

People just don't read section 132.

[mbh26]

There are 66 verses in D&C 132 and only 3 discuss polygamy. The main thrust of D&C 132 is eternal marriage which is required for exaltation. Nothing in D&C 132 or any other scripture says polygamy is required for exaltation. Furthermore, polygamy requires at least twice as many women than men to be worthy of exaltation, which can not be guaranteed, given that we all have our free agency.

Who is to say these women have to come from this earth. I think of the scripture, "For God is able of these stones to raise up seed unto Abraham." A lot of things about heaven don't always make logical sense. But I'm not going to let that stop me from believing in the dream.

[mbh26]

Who is to say that all potential polygamous wives must come from women who have lived on earth. I think there are actually more boys being born now than girls. It's just that boys get killed more frequently and has been that way since the beginning of the world. There may not even be enough women for them to have one wife. I think of the scripture, "For God is able of these stones to raise up seed unto Abraham." We could name a lot of things about the gospel plan that don't seem to make logical sense. I'm not going to let that stop me from believing the dream, and the gospel is definitely the sweetest dream I could imagine.

[cinepro]

There are 66 verses in D&C 132 and only 3 discuss polygamy.

Which three?

[cinepro]

131 doesn't say that there would be whole hosts of people that did this. It only says that if they didn't get sealed to someone they wouldn't make it.

Ok, just so I'm clear, under what circumstances would a soul find themselves in the lower two degrees of the Celestial Kingdom? They have to meet all the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom, including Temple attendance and enduring to the end. But they then have to reject the opportunity to be sealed monogamously to a spouse? Who, exactly, is going to be doing this?

The definition is not fluid at all. Celestial marriage = Being sealed for time and eternity.

...he wrote in 2011.

A single data point isn't worth much when we're discussing trends over time. In order to show that the definition isn't "fluid", you would need to show that it has had the same definition over time, and that the latter-day Prophets and Apostles have consistently defined it from the 1840's until today.

[Chris Smith]

Thank you! That guy was seriously out of line for posting that! Is it possible to have his entire post deleted? Thanks!

LOL.

[BCSpace]

Ok, just so I'm clear, under what circumstances would a soul find themselves in the lower two degrees of the Celestial Kingdom? They have to meet all the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom, including Temple attendance and enduring to the end. But they then have to reject the opportunity to be sealed monogamously to a spouse? Who, exactly, is going to be doing this?

Well, to hear my Dad talk just before he died which was just after a bitter divorce, he might actually be one of them.

[Brenda]

A position not shared by younger LDS women I think.

Last Sunday School class I fielded a surprise polygamy question.

After the question was answered, one girl added "Polygamy is disgusting." and the other girls nodded in approval.

When I was a young LDS woman, I felt the same way. Today, a little older and a little wiser, I agree that we can "grow into" the idea, just as we can grow into anything the Lord may feel is best for us.

[TAO]

I think if most people who object to such understood the reason it could possibly happen, I don't think there would be so many rejectors...

[staccato]

I think if most people who object to such understood the reason it could possibly happen, I don't think there would be so many rejectors...

Yet look at how many people completely rejected God and his plan in the preexistence, knowing and understanding the reasons.

[TAO]

Yet look at how many people completely rejected God and his plan in the preexistence, knowing and understanding the reasons.

Because they wished for a world without agency (Moses 4:3)

[Mansquatch]

Ok, just so I'm clear, under what circumstances would a soul find themselves in the lower two degrees of the Celestial Kingdom? They have to meet all the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom, including Temple attendance and enduring to the end. But they then have to reject the opportunity to be sealed monogamously to a spouse? Who, exactly, is going to be doing this?

Why have three divisions when there is apparently only one thing (not being sealed or sealed multiple times) that would put you there? Can someone not be sealed in a worse degree than someone else? I personally believe that the divisions in the CK have more than one purpose and may be divisions between post mortal ordinances that Prophets have mentioned. I also personally believe there to be more levels than just the standard 3.

...he wrote in 2011.

A single data point isn't worth much when we're discussing trends over time. In order to show that the definition isn't "fluid", you would need to show that it has had the same definition over time, and that the latter-day Prophets and Apostles have consistently defined it from the 1840's until today.

The scriptures have been constant even if people have jumbled them together.