Zelph Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Not wanting to derail the 'Do Mormons teach that God was once a man?' thread I wanted to follow up on a topic that was raised that I've wondered about. 1. Is Polygamy doctrine? - well at one time it was, now it isn't, but it will be in the Celestial Kingdom although on the LDS website under Polygamy it quotes President Hinkey as saying it isn't doctrinal.My questions are:1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?2. If so, do you have a problem with it?3. How will it be possible when all the information I have show that men and women are born at very close to a 1:1 ratio?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 My questions are:1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?I am not aware of any scripture that says it is mandatory. I am not aware of any offical teaching that it is mandatory.2. If so, do you have a problem with it?Well, yes, because it appears to be a false teaching. I am not aware of any auhtortative reference that says it is.However I will point out that if it is true, then I would not have an issue with it. TO me polygamy is a non issue and something I will worry about latter.3. How will it be possible when all the information I have show that men and women are born at very close to a 1:1 ratio?No one that I am aware of has argued that polygamy is mandatory in teh CK. So your questions seem to be moot.
Zelph Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 I understand that polygamy isn't doctrine any longer here on earth, but growing up I was told that it was still neccessary for full progression which is why all the verses pertaining to it haven't been removed from the D&C. A misconception perhaps?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 I understand that polygamy isn't doctrine any longer here on earth, but growing up I was told that it was still neccessary for full progression which is why all the verses pertaining to it haven't been removed from the D&C. A misconception perhaps?Um please quote the relevant material that you think is stating that polygamy is required for all to enter teh CK. I know some poeple think it is talking about that in the D&C but it is not.
SilverKnight Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Not wanting to derail the 'Do Mormons teach that God was once a man?' thread I wanted to follow up on a topic that was raised that I've wondered about. My questions are:1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?Almost no modern LDS believe it will be mandatory.Some may believe that it will be practiced (optionally) in the CK.Most now believe it was a temporal practice designed to perform a certain function - not a heavenly ideal for marriage.2. If so, do you have a problem with it?I have a problem with polygamy as a religious practice in general.Mandatory Celestial Kingdom polygamy seems too far fetched to really worry about.3. How will it be possible when all the information I have show that men and women are born at very close to a 1:1 ratio?Applying real world logistics to divine beings, their powers and their practices quickly becomes rather pointless.
Mansquatch Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?No. Where would one get such an idea? <- That was a real question, I really would like to know.
Zelph Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 It's been quite a while since I attended church, but I believe that those I was talking to applied D&C 132:4 to the entire chapter. I'm guessing now that most would only apply it to Celestial Marriage.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 It's been quite a while since I attended church, but I believe that those I was talking to applied D&C 132:4 to the entire chapter. I'm guessing now that most would only apply it to Celestial Marriage.Celestial marriage and polygamy are not the same thing just so you know.
thesometimesaint Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Zelph:Yes, polygamy is one of the doctrines of the Church. See D&C 132.No, it is not mandatory for the Celestial Kingdom.I have no problem with its practice in the Celestial Kingdom.Actually it is 103 males for every 100 females. That ratio seems to hold up over time. So simply by demographics there MAY well be many more males in the Celestial Kingdom than females. But I assume that only those that want to be in the Celestial Kingdom will be. So it MAY turn out that men can have more than one wife there.
Zelph Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 Celestial marriage and polygamy are not the same thing just so you know.Thanks for the clarification. They are, however, discussed in the same chapter.
Mark Beesley Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Applying real world logistics to divine beings, their powers and their practices quickly becomes rather pointless.Excellent observation.If people generally, and LDS spec ifically, could learn this simple principle, it would eiiminate an awful lot of the issues that get discussed here, in Sunday School, Relief Society, Priesthood Meeting, and elsewhere. (See Isaiah 55:8-9)
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks for the clarification. They are, however, discussed in the same chapter.YEs, you are correct. FYIPolygamy is called "The law of Sarah".D&C 132:6565Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.
Mark Beesley Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 It's been quite a while since I attended church, but I believe that those I was talking to applied D&C 132:4 to the entire chapter. I'm guessing now that most would only apply it to Celestial Marriage.Reading verse 7 makes it clear that verse 4 applies only to the quality of the sealing power, not the quantity of entities to whom it is applied. If you will read the entire section yourself, very carefully, you will see that polygamy is not required of those who do not desire it.
Jason Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Polygamy apparently will be required by those who practiced plural marriage before the Manifesto, and for those widowers who go on to be sealed to a second wife.As for the rest of us, who knows?
semlogo Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Reading verse 7 makes it clear that verse 4 applies only to the quality of the sealing power, not the quantity of entities to whom it is applied. If you will read the entire section yourself, very carefully, you will see that polygamy is not required of those who do not desire it.It would appear that the first wife didn't have the ability to veto it, though.D&C 132 64And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law. 65Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.
ERayR Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Mandantory anything in the Celestial Kingdom is against the LDS understanding and doctrine of agency.
Zelph Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 Most now believe it was a temporal practice designed to perform a certain function - not a heavenly ideal for marriage.Do we know what that 'certain function' was?
SilverKnight Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Do we know what that 'certain function' was?Yes-To "Raise up a righteous seed" or, in other words, to produce a lot of offspring to faithful priesthood holders very quickly.At least that is the best reason LDS apologists have given for its purpose.However there is no current consensus on why polygamy was practiced.Its purpose remains a mystery and is an uncomfortable subject for most mormons.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Yes-To "Raise up a righteous seed" or, in other words, to produce a lot of offspring to faithful priesthood holders very quickly.At least that is the best reason LDS apologists have given for its purpose.However there is no current consensus on why polygamy was practiced.Its purpose remains a mystery and is an uncomfortable subject for most mormons.Acutally that is what is revealed in the BoM. Out side of that we just don't know.
staccato Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Raising righteous seed...............eternal increase. See any similarities?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Raising righteous seed...............eternal increase. See any similarities?Actually I don't. IF there is an eternal increase and I have 3 wives vs one wive how many kids will I have at the end of eternity?The answer is a platypus.
staccato Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 ACtually I don't. IF there is an eternal increase and I have 3 wives vs one wive how many kids will I have at the end of eternity?The answer is a platypus.Look harder, Mr. Platypus. It's a numbers game designed to reward the most prolifically righteous breeders with the most glory.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Look harder, Mr. Platypus. It's a numbers game designed to reward the most prolifically righteous breeders with the most glory.Nothing could be more false than the statement you made above.BTW you never answered my question.
staccato Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 This one?IF there is an eternal increase and I have 3 wives vs one wive how many kids will I have at the end of eternity?There is no end of eternity. But if you have one wife bearing eternally as compared to three wives bearing eternally, your eternal output is always going to be larger in the triplicate number.Edited for clarity.
cinepro Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 1. Is Polygamy doctrine? - well at one time it was, now it isn't, but it will be in the Celestial Kingdom although on the LDS website under Polygamy it quotes President Hinkey as saying it isn't doctrinal.Jon63 made this claim in post #62 in this thread. I'd like to see this quote if anyone can show me where it is on the Church website.1. Do most believe that it will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom?I've never seen a poll on the subject, so it would be impossible to know what "most believe". From what I can tell, few Mormons think about, and among those I've talked to who have thought about it, most women don't like the idea, and most men joke about it.I would guess very few expect it to be "mandatory" for the CK.2. If so, do you have a problem with it?It would depend on how hot the additional wives are.3. How will it be possible when all the information I have show that men and women are born at very close to a 1:1 ratio?There are many reasons polygamy probably isn't required for the CK. The logistics of needing a minimum 2:1 ratio of women to men in the CK is one of them.But I think D&C 131 is the best argument for polygamy being required for the highest degree of the CK. According to it, it is required to enter into the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage" to attain the highest degree of the CK, while those who don't get the lower two degrees of CK glory. Some suggest that this is referring to monogamous Celestial marriage, but that would mean there has to be people who are worthy to enter the CK in every other way, but willingly choose to forfeit their blessings by refusing to enter into eternal monogamy. I can't imagine there ever being a person for whom this would be true, and given the timing of the revelation (1843), I suspect it is referring to the kind of marriage that some otherwise CK-ready people would have a serious problem with: polygamous celestial marriage.Obviously (and thankfully) we can define "celestial marriage" with a great degree of latitude, so the requirements can change with the social mores in which the Church finds itself.
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