Holy Ghost & Mormon theology

[bu11fr0g]

Two questions came up:

Is the Holy Ghost a child of Heavenly Father?

Will the Holy Ghost get a body, and if so when?

I recognize that this is not in the area of clear doctrine but was wondering what statements had been made?

[ELF1024]

Two questions came up:

Is the Holy Ghost a child of Heavenly Father?

Will the Holy Ghost get a body, and if so when?

I recognize that this is not in the area of clear doctrine but was wondering what statements had been made?

I believe that the Holy Ghost is just like the rest of us, all spirit sons/daughters of God the Father.

I'm not sure where she got the idea, but one of the people in my gospel principles class said that the Holy Ghost will recieve a body, as the very last person born on the planet.

[mercyngrace]

Past thread on the topic found here.

The first page is slow but there are some good links and quotes mixed in over the last 3 pages.

[nicolasconnault]

In my opinion there is a very good reason why these obviously fascinating questions are not answered anywhere in the scriptures. That reason might be to prevent us from making the Holy Ghost our prime object of worship, instead of the Father and the Son. Since the Holy Ghost is the most accessible member of the Godhead, one whose influence and presence we can feel each day, knowing too much about him might lead us into a worship of "him" alone. This would also explain why we traditionally (and scripturally) depersonalise the Holy Ghost even further by referring to the Holy Ghost as "it" instead of "him".

[TAO]

In my opinion there is a very good reason why these obviously fascinating questions are not answered anywhere in the scriptures. That reason might be to prevent us from making the Holy Ghost our prime object of worship, instead of the Father and the Son. Since the Holy Ghost is the most accessible member of the Godhead, one whose influence and presence we can feel each day, knowing too much about him might lead us into a worship of "him" alone. This would also explain why we traditionally (and scripturally) depersonalise the Holy Ghost even further by referring to the Holy Ghost as "it" instead of "him".

Yes, I think your right... I notice the Holy Ghost does not like to take any degree of glory for himself, he truly tries connecting us to the Father and Son.

[Mortal Man]

Is the Holy Ghost a child of Heavenly Father?

She started out as the Queen of Heaven, consort of El. Later she became Lady Wisdom aka Asherah, consort of Yahweh. The earliest Christians saw her as Sophia, who descended as a dove at Jesus' baptism.

[Rob Osborn]

Two questions came up:

Is the Holy Ghost a child of Heavenly Father?

Will the Holy Ghost get a body, and if so when?

I recognize that this is not in the area of clear doctrine but was wondering what statements had been made?

I have found a lot of inconsistancies with the HG. I am not really sure if the HG is actually a person. I know this goes against my LDS doctrinal beliefs but in this case 2+2 is not equallying 4. It is said that the HG will and shall be our constant companion. If he is an actual individual this is impossible.

Early in the church it was believed that the HG was just the mind and will of the Lord, even the very spirit of Jesus Christ. When speaking of the future throne of God, only the Father and Son sit there- no one else- no third member. Speaking of the pre-earth life, the HG is never mentioned as conversing with God, only the Son is and other specific individuals. It really doesn't add up that he is a single spirit being that can only be in one place at a time and yet be said to be inside of all the members of Christ. What purpose would it serve if he can only be in one place at a time? He might as well be a personage of flesh and bone just as Christ.

Doesn't add up in my opinion.

[nicolasconnault]

I have found a lot of inconsistancies with the HG. I am not really sure if the HG is actually a person. I know this goes against my LDS doctrinal beliefs but in this case 2+2 is not equallying 4. It is said that the HG will and shall be our constant companion. If he is an actual individual this is impossible.

Early in the church it was believed that the HG was just the mind and will of the Lord, even the very spirit of Jesus Christ. When speaking of the future throne of God, only the Father and Son sit there- no one else- no third member. Speaking of the pre-earth life, the HG is never mentioned as conversing with God, only the Son is and other specific individuals. It really doesn't add up that he is a single spirit being that can only be in one place at a time and yet be said to be inside of all the members of Christ. What purpose would it serve if he can only be in one place at a time? He might as well be a personage of flesh and bone just as Christ.

Doesn't add up in my opinion.

I wouldn't conjecture from lack of data. See my previous post, a few posts ahead.

[Rob Osborn]

I wouldn't conjecture from lack of data. See my previous post, a few posts ahead.

How does one personage fill the bodies of all the saints at the same time?

[mfbukowski]

She started out as the Queen of Heaven, consort of El. Later she became Lady Wisdom aka Asherah, consort of Yahweh. The earliest Christians saw her as Sophia, who descended as a dove at Jesus' baptism.

There has been much written about the HG being a female force, but it gets very confusing when we put a Heavenly Mother in there as well. But the HG being female doesn't fit well with LDS theology obviously.

[ELF1024]

How does one personage fill the bodies of all the saints at the same time?

Somehow I think the Evangelical's could 'splain it quite well, since they are used to the impossible conundrum that is the Nicean Trinity.

[mfbukowski]

How does one personage fill the bodies of all the saints at the same time?

Well I think the classical answer is that this confuses the HG as personage with influence, which is often identified as operating with the Light of Christ- you know- the old analogy- "the sun" can be on the floor of your room with the curtains open, as well as a burning ball in the heavens.

His influence can be everywhere while he is "actually" in a specific location.

[Tarski]

In my opinion the Holy Ghost makes much more sense as a non-personal force much like the LDS notion of the Light of Christ.

The word "spirit" in phrases such as "the spirit of God" in this way would be closer to the word spirit in the phrase "the spirit of freedom" or "the spirit of 76".

The literal personification of the Holy Spirit is to me just one more misstep in the evolution of modern Mormon theology. That fact that ancients also tended to personify the divine only means that Mormonism is to that extent atavistic.

Somehow everything ends up being an animal--God himself, the Holy Spirit, and at times, even mother earth.

If you listen closely to the way people actually authentically speak in church when describing emotional encounters with the spirit, it becomes clear that for the most part they aren't conceptualizing the spirit as a person but rather as a feeling or influx of a feeling or even a ghostly substance that "fills" them.

[Chris]

It's going to be problematic when Mr. Holy Ghost asks his fiancee girlfriend to marry him. She won't be able to get a confirmation when she prays about it.

[mfbukowski]

Somehow everything ends up being an animal--God himself, the Holy Spirit, and at times, even mother earth.

When actually of course the earth really is our mother

Just pulling your leg. It is a bit hard to escape figures of speech, though, isn't it?

[mfbukowski]

If you listen closely to the way people actually authentically speak in church when describing emotional encounters with the spirit, it becomes clear that for the most part they aren't conceptualizing the spirit as a person but rather as a feeling or influx of a feeling or even a ghostly substance that "fills" them.

Unfortunately I agree with you on this one.

It kind of bugs me when people talk about being filled with the "spirit of gratitude" or a "spirit of contention"- let's at least be consistent with our own theology when we speak about it, for Pete's sake!

[ELF1024]

Unfortunately I agree with you on this one.

It kind of bugs me when people talk about being filled with the "spirit of gratitude" or a "spirit of contention"- let's at least be consistent with our own theology when we speak about it, for Pete's sake!

Just because it's Christmas time... Remember what Scrooge called the Ghost of Marley....

[cinepro]

When actually of course the earth really is our mother

Just pulling your leg. It is a bit hard to escape figures of speech, though, isn't it?

Figure of speech indeed...

48 And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?

49 And when Enoch heard the earth mourn, he wept, and cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, wilt thou not have compassion upon the earth? Wilt thou not bless the children of Noah?

Moses 7

[jadams_4242]

Two questions came up:

Is the Holy Ghost a child of Heavenly Father?

Will the Holy Ghost get a body, and if so when?

I recognize that this is not in the area of clear doctrine but was wondering what statements had been made?

The Holy Ghost is a "power" a comforter, a messanger of God,an essence,a spirit, the purpose or job of the spirit is quite obvious,the Holy Ghost,s purpose is not one of mortality nor purpose other than to bring knowledge to those whom qualify, and certain gifts to some who do not qualify,if it would be proper {which it is not} we could use the word "magic", but of course it is not magic but Gods ability to give us intelligence,knowledge,comfort and guidance in all things. the spirit is actually a part of God, and is defined as another member of the Godhead because of the nessacery and separate work it manifests. the spirit has no purpose in being ressurected, judged,needing to be baptized e;t;c.....the spirit is power. not substance.

[Chris]

I wonder what it's like to be the holy ghost with consideration of 2 Nephi 2:11. How does he know what the feeling he gives to people feels like?

[rpn]

But the Holy Ghost is described as a member of the Godhood, which would give him form. My pure speculation is that the Holy Ghost in one world, may become the Savior in another one.

[mfbukowski]

Figure of speech indeed...

If you want to take it literally, fine with me.

[erichard]

Two questions came up:

Is the Holy Ghost a child of Heavenly Father?

Will the Holy Ghost get a body, and if so when?

I recognize that this is not in the area of clear doctrine but was wondering what statements had been made?

Hi bu11fr0g,

Brigham Young, the ordained revelator for the church, made this statement:

It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (JD 1:51)

If one believes that President Young was ordained of God in the work he did, and I do, then one has to at least consider that this statement is a true saying.

Thus, it equates:

Eloheim = Father

Jehovah = Son

Michael = Holy Ghost

People question that Michael, who became Adam, could be the Holy Ghost because the book of Moses speaks of Adam "receiving the Holy Ghost". However, we know that Jesus progressed grace for grace before obtaining the fulness (D&C 93:12-13), so we know that "distinct characters" (finite beings) must overcome all things before they become one with the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost"-- which are described as "infinite" in D&C 20:28.

The calling and work of the Holy Ghost is eternal and infinite, but the finite beings that obtain to that calling are beings who at some point were like us now.

Thus, to me, it is believable that it was not until Adam died, and his spirit left his body, that he obtained the calling of the Holy Ghost.

Here are some other points that support the Ghost of Adam as the Holy Ghost:

1. The term "ghost" implies a spirit that had a body and died. A spirit that has never had a body is usually not called a "ghost".

2. The power and authority of the HG is beyond our understanding. It does not make any sense that such power and authority would be given to a spirit who has never been tested in the flesh. It makes "reason stare" as Eliza would say.

3. The HG sees and understands all things. For a being to watch ALL the horrible crimes and accidents and wickedness in the world and understand it and respond to it correctly would take someone beyond anyone I have ever met. I would bet virtually all of us could not emotionally handle it all, and often would not exactly know how to judge it.

4. I have had sons, and I know how much they have to learn when they are little. It absolutely makes no sense to me that the Holy Ghost would be a spirit who has never had a body. It DOES make sense that He would be the Ghost of a Holy man who lived in the world, overcame the flesh and died.

5. As our common father, Adam is a perfect candidate to be the "holy spirit of promise" to seal all covenants of his children.

6. It also makes sense that he would be the Comforter for his children, and the Spirit of Truth to teach and guide his children.

Richard

[nicolasconnault]

Hi bu11fr0g,

Brigham Young, the ordained revelator for the church, made this statement:

If one believes that President Young was ordained of God in the work he did, and I do, then one has to at least consider that this statement is a true saying.

Thus, it equates:

Eloheim = Father

Jehovah = Son

Michael = Holy Ghost

People question that Michael, who became Adam, could be the Holy Ghost because the book of Moses speaks of Adam "receiving the Holy Ghost". However, we know that Jesus progressed grace for grace before obtaining the fulness (D&C 93:12-13), so we know that "distinct characters" (finite beings) must overcome all things before they become one with the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost"-- which are described as "infinite" in D&C 20:28.

The calling and work of the Holy Ghost is eternal and infinite, but the finite beings that obtain to that calling are beings who at some point were like us now.

Thus, to me, it is believable that it was not until Adam died, and his spirit left his body, that he obtained the calling of the Holy Ghost.

Here are some other points that support the Ghost of Adam as the Holy Ghost:

1. The term "ghost" implies a spirit that had a body and died. A spirit that has never had a body is usually not called a "ghost".

2. The power and authority of the HG is beyond our understanding. It does not make any sense that such power and authority would be given to a spirit who has never been tested in the flesh. It makes "reason stare" as Eliza would say.

3. The HG sees and understands all things. For a being to watch ALL the horrible crimes and accidents and wickedness in the world and understand it and respond to it correctly would take someone beyond anyone I have ever met. I would bet virtually all of us could not emotionally handle it all, and often would not exactly know how to judge it.

4. I have had sons, and I know how much they have to learn when they are little. It absolutely makes no sense to me that the Holy Ghost would be a spirit who has never had a body. It DOES make sense that He would be the Ghost of a Holy man who lived in the world, overcame the flesh and died.

5. As our common father, Adam is a perfect candidate to be the "holy spirit of promise" to seal all covenants of his children.

6. It also makes sense that he would be the Comforter for his children, and the Spirit of Truth to teach and guide his children.

Richard

This entire theory becomes questionable if one considers the name "Michael" to be a title rather than referring to a single entity or person. This is the case for Elias, for example. The theory would also crumble if Brigham Young's words had been misquoted, or if he simply made a mistake in his talk. Apostles frequently make mistakes in their GC talks, some of which are corrected before being printed in the Ensign.

[oceancoast]

She started out as the Queen of Heaven, consort of El. Later she became Lady Wisdom aka Asherah, consort of Yahweh. The earliest Christians saw her as Sophia, who descended as a dove at Jesus' baptism.

Great observation. Although that view will run counter to the patriarchal traditions, that refer to the Holy Ghost as a "He".