Holy Ghost & Mormon theology

[Darth_Bill]

I gave a lesson in HP group earlier this year where I posed the question, "The Holy Ghost...why?" I'm not sure if the answers were all that sufficient. Seems like most members never questioned the need to have a disembodied member of the Godhead that was in any way distinct from the "light of Christ". The dwelling that the HS could give was about the only reason, but I'm not sure how defined that dwelling is vs spiritual influence. Perhaps I'm just spiritually sophmoric.

[nicolasconnault]

I gave a lesson in HP group earlier this year where I posed the question, "The Holy Ghost...why?" I'm not sure if the answers were all that sufficient. Seems like most members never questioned the need to have a disembodied member of the Godhead that was in any way distinct from the "light of Christ". The dwelling that the HS could give was about the only reason, but I'm not sure how defined that dwelling is vs spiritual influence. Perhaps I'm just spiritually sophmoric.

The real question here is "how?" rather than "why?". We know why we need the Holy Ghost, although we are wont to forget on a daily basis. Here is my reasoning:

• When you are baptised, you covenant to become a disciple of Christ, and to take His name upon you. That means you become his representative, and your actions, words and thoughts should become His, should He be in your place.
• It is impossible to always know "what Christ would do" simply through induction based on scripture study. We are bound to get things wrong if we only rely on reasoning.
• The gift of the Holy Ghost grants the ability to always know "what Christ would do" (including what we should pray for)
• To take advantage of that gift, we must ask the question: "What would the Saviour do?" each time we need to make a difficult choice, and then think about the answer.
• My experience is that the Holy Ghost always prompts me immediately and accurately when I follow this process
• The problem is that we often fail to ask, and we even fail to realise we need to ask that question

So this is one reason "why". As to "how", I don't actually know "how" the Holy Ghost performs its duties, and I really don't care to any greater degree than a mere intellectual curiosity.

[Kiviuq]

It

[erichard]

... The theory would also crumble if Brigham Young's words had been misquoted, or if he simply made a mistake in his talk. ....

Hi,

I never said anything about the "Adam-God" theory, but you are right: the quote I gave was part of a discourse on the matter.

You do realize that there are hundreds of contemporary records of President Young teaching what is called the Adam-God theory or doctrine.

If there was just one or two discourses on the matter you would have a valid concern. But with hundreds of records it honestly is not possible they were all misquoted or a slip of tongue.

Do you want a link to webpages with hundreds of excerpts on the matter from contemporary records of BY teaching Adam-God?

Richard

[nicolasconnault]

Hi,

I never said anything about the "Adam-God" theory, but you are right: the quote I gave was part of a discourse on the matter.

You do realize that there are hundreds of contemporary records of President Young teaching what is called the Adam-God theory or doctrine.

If there was just one or two discourses on the matter you would have a valid concern. But with hundreds of records it honestly is not possible they were all misquoted or a slip of tongue.

Do you want a link to webpages with hundreds of excerpts on the matter from contemporary records of BY teaching Adam-God?

Richard

No thanks Richard, my comments were solely about your Adam-Holy Ghost hypothesis.

[Lightbearer]

Since no one else has done so I will give the following quote:

(D&C 130:22-23) "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him."

That is the current understanding of the Holy Ghost in the Church today. As for if He will get a body, we do not know and have been warned against speculation. The Prophet Joseph also made this statement:

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section Four 1839-42, p.190)

"Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator.--MSS"

So the Holy Ghost is more than just the "mind of God" or an immaterial force like the light of Christ. In fact He uses the light of Christ as a means of communicating with more than one person at a time.

[Rob Osborn]

Since no one else has done so I will give the following quote:That is the current understanding of the Holy Ghost in the Church today. As for if He will get a body, we do not know and have been warned against speculation. The Prophet Joseph also made this statement:So the Holy Ghost is more than just the "mind of God" or an immaterial force like the light of Christ. In fact He uses the light of Christ as a means of communicating with more than one person at a time.

It seems quite obvious that the HG as an actual personage probably is neither in you or I at this moment. But, if we have the HG as a constant companion, then what is the true substance of the HG that is in both of us simultaneously at this very moment? If it is th elight of Christ, then why does there even need to be a HG as an actual spiritual personage?

Chances are that the HG as the actual personage has never been inside of every members bodies which begs the question then of why does he even need to be in spiritual form if in fact it is some other substance besides his actual spirit that dwells with the saints?

[nicolasconnault]

It seems quite obvious that the HG as an actual personage probably is neither in you or I at this moment. But, if we have the HG as a constant companion, then what is the true substance of the HG that is in both of us simultaneously at this very moment? If it is th elight of Christ, then why does there even need to be a HG as an actual spiritual personage?

Chances are that the HG as the actual personage has never been inside of every members bodies which begs the question then of why does he even need to be in spiritual form if in fact it is some other substance besides his actual spirit that dwells with the saints?

I don't understand why you think that the only interpretation of "constant companionship" is "within us"? My wife is my constant companion, and she's not inside of me! The sacrament prayer doesn't say "that they may have His Spirit to be within them", but with them. All this can be explained by the idea of the Holy Ghost's influence compared to the sun's light. If we compare our soul to a house that has windows and curtains on those windows, we can let more or less of that light (the Spirit's influence) into our soul. That is akin to having the companionship of the sun, even though the sun is not technically in our home. We even tend to say: "Ahh the sun feels nice this morning!", or "The sun has a real bite today!" (trust me, I say that a lot, I live in Western Australia!).

[mfbukowski]

Thus, it equates:

Eloheim = Father

Jehovah = Son

Michael = Holy Ghost

People question that Michael, who became Adam, could be the Holy Ghost because the book of Moses speaks of Adam "receiving the Holy Ghost". However, we know that Jesus progressed grace for grace before obtaining the fulness (D&C 93:12-13), so we know that "distinct characters" (finite beings) must overcome all things before they become one with the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost"-- which are described as "infinite" in D&C 20:28.

The calling and work of the Holy Ghost is eternal and infinite, but the finite beings that obtain to that calling are beings who at some point were like us now.

Thus, to me, it is believable that it was not until Adam died, and his spirit left his body, that he obtained the calling of the Holy Ghost.

Here are some other points that support the Ghost of Adam as the Holy Ghost:

1. The term "ghost" implies a spirit that had a body and died. A spirit that has never had a body is usually not called a "ghost".

2. The power and authority of the HG is beyond our understanding. It does not make any sense that such power and authority would be given to a spirit who has never been tested in the flesh. It makes "reason stare" as Eliza would say.

3. The HG sees and understands all things. For a being to watch ALL the horrible crimes and accidents and wickedness in the world and understand it and respond to it correctly would take someone beyond anyone I have ever met. I would bet virtually all of us could not emotionally handle it all, and often would not exactly know how to judge it.

4. I have had sons, and I know how much they have to learn when they are little. It absolutely makes no sense to me that the Holy Ghost would be a spirit who has never had a body. It DOES make sense that He would be the Ghost of a Holy man who lived in the world, overcame the flesh and died.

5. As our common father, Adam is a perfect candidate to be the "holy spirit of promise" to seal all covenants of his children.

6. It also makes sense that he would be the Comforter for his children, and the Spirit of Truth to teach and guide his children.

Richard

An interesting theory, which I think harmonizes the Adam-God theory with more traditional Mormon doctrine.

Anybody got a direct scriptural contradiction with this view? I can't think of any at the moment.

As far as the HG being a spirit- there is no contradiction here assuming that Adam is not yet resurrected and so the HG IS a spirit- of a person who died, but still a spirit.

I have wondered how a pre-existent spirit could have the Priesthood, and I cannot imagine that a member of the Godhead would NOT have the Priesthood- and this theory solves that one too!

What am I missing here?? There has to be something!!

[nicolasconnault]

An interesting theory, which I think harmonizes the Adam-God theory with more traditional Mormon doctrine.

Anybody got a direct scriptural contradiction with this view? I can't think of any at the moment.

As far as the HG being a spirit- there is no contradiction here assuming that Adam is not yet resurrected and so the HG IS a spirit- of a person who died, but still a spirit.

I have wondered how a pre-existent spirit could have the Priesthood, and I cannot imagine that a member of the Godhead would NOT have the Priesthood- and this theory solves that one too!

What am I missing here?? There has to be something!!

Just one thing comes to mind: all the righteous who died before Christ were resurrected at His resurrection, and that would include Adam.

Actually, one other thing: Adam lived an awful long time on earth, with something like 7 generations of descendants peopling the earth before he died (including Enoch and his city). I find it hard to believe that all these people were deprived of the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

[Vance]

An interesting theory, which I think harmonizes the Adam-God theory with more traditional Mormon doctrine.

Anybody got a direct scriptural contradiction with this view? I can't think of any at the moment.

As far as the HG being a spirit- there is no contradiction here assuming that Adam is not yet resurrected and so the HG IS a spirit- of a person who died, but still a spirit.

I have wondered how a pre-existent spirit could have the Priesthood, and I cannot imagine that a member of the Godhead would NOT have the Priesthood- and this theory solves that one too!

What am I missing here?? There has to be something!!

The only problem I can see at this time is with this part.

1. The term "ghost" implies a spirit that had a body and died. A spirit that has never had a body is usually not called a "ghost".

From a friend of mine.

The "Holy Ghost" and the "Holy Spirit" are the same. Both "Ghost" and "Spirit" are translations of the same Greek Word Pneuma. "Spirit" is the better translation, because it can always be used, whereas "Ghost" is normally only used in connection with the word "holy". Evidently King James Bible translators in 1611 A.D. felt that "the Holy Ghost" more adiquately described the third member of the Godhead that "the Holy Spirit", and so that the translation was used wherever possible.

I suspect that all brought forth by Joseph Smith followed the KJV convention.

[mfbukowski]

Just one thing comes to mind: all the righteous who died before Christ were resurrected at His resurrection, and that would include Adam.

Actually, one other thing: Adam lived an awful long time on earth, with something like 7 generations of descendants peopling the earth before he died (including Enoch and his city). I find it hard to believe that all these people were deprived of the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

I can imagine some kind of "special dispensation" for Adam to be resurrected later or something, but it's a good point. I like the second point even better.

Could one argue that just as the Holy Ghost was not inspiring people during the savior's ministry, during the HG's "mortal ministry" there was also no need for his services as a spirit?

After all, he was teaching the patriarchs in the flesh, face to face as the savior taught his apostles. No wonder Enoch pulled that one off! Can you imagine sitting there talking to the Holy Ghost himself???

But good points-

[mfbukowski]

The only problem I can see at this time is with this part.

From a friend of mine.

I suspect that all brought forth by Joseph Smith followed the KJV convention.

Well I think that you and your friend are right, but I am not that impressed with the terminology differences- perhaps the common usage of "Holy Ghost" is only meant as a signal or a clue to precisely this point. I always thought it was kind of weird that we used the word "Ghost" at all.

I don't know. I am not totally sold but it is an interesting theory, and I can't see any doctrinal conflicts to blow it out of the water. Some ripples maybe but nothing big.

[nicolasconnault]

I can imagine some kind of "special dispensation" for Adam to be resurrected later or something, but it's a good point. I like the second point even better.

Could one argue that just as the Holy Ghost was not inspiring people during the savior's ministry, during the HG's "mortal ministry" there was also no need for his services as a spirit?

After all, he was teaching the patriarchs in the flesh, face to face as the savior taught his apostles. No wonder Enoch pulled that one off! Can you imagine sitting there talking to the Holy Ghost himself???

But good points-

The Holy Ghost was not ministering to the Jews (in Palestine) during the Saviour's ministry, but he was ministering to other nations, as evidenced by the Book of Mormon. Besides, the time frame is much larger, we are not talking about 3 years (or 33, for argument's sake) without the Holy Ghost ministering to a relatively small population: this is hundreds of years with no Holy Ghost for possibly millions of people. If Enoch "pulled it off", we can't say the same for Noah's contemporaries, who certainly could have used a little inspiration too

[mfbukowski]

The Holy Ghost was not ministering to the Jews (in Palestine) during the Saviour's ministry, but he was ministering to other nations, as evidenced by the Book of Mormon. Besides, the time frame is much larger, we are not talking about 3 years (or 33, for argument's sake) without the Holy Ghost ministering to a relatively small population: this is hundreds of years with no Holy Ghost for possibly millions of people. If Enoch "pulled it off", we can't say the same for Noah's contemporaries, who certainly could have used a little inspiration too

Interesting point about the HG inspiring people in the Americas during the Saviors ministry- hadn't thought about that one!

But Adam died what- a couple of hundred years before Noah? So at least some of those guys had no excuse even if the theory is right

So maybe the "Light of Christ" was filling in?

Here, let me take this sledge hammer to the theory and see if we can bang on it til it fits.......

[Kiviuq]

I don't understand why you think that the only interpretation of "constant companionship" is "within us"? My wife is my constant companion, and she's not inside of me! The sacrament prayer doesn't say "that they may have His Spirit to be within them", but with them. All this can be explained by the idea of the Holy Ghost's influence compared to the sun's light. If we compare our soul to a house that has windows and curtains on those windows, we can let more or less of that light (the Spirit's influence) into our soul. That is akin to having the companionship of the sun, even though the sun is not technically in our home. We even tend to say: "Ahh the sun feels nice this morning!", or "The sun has a real bite today!" (trust me, I say that a lot, I live in Western Australia!).

(D&C 130:22-23) "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him."

I

[nicolasconnault]

I

[phaedrus ut]

This thread reminded me of this comic.

Happy Holidays,

Phaedrus

[Kiviuq]

Joseph's use of the phrase "dwell in us" is not literal, in my opinion, but colloquial. He was using a phrase that was commonly used and understood at the time, to explain how we can all feel the Holy Ghost in a very personal, individual way that feels as if he was in us. He is basically telling us that this personal ministration is possible because the Holy Ghost is not bound by the physical limitations inherent to a physical body.

I admit, however, that I don't fully understand why Heavenly Father's "influence" could not equally be felt by everyone. Having a resurrected, perfected body appears to be a limitation in this regard.

What is it that a personage of spirit can do that one of flesh and bone cannot? D&C 130 implies that God the Father or Jesus can not dwell in us in the same way the Holy Ghost can. If, as you suggest,

[Calm]

Having a resurrected, perfected body appears to be a limitation in this regard.

Perhaps the 'limitation' with a perfect resurrected glorified being is the need for a mortal to be placed in a special condition in order to be able to endure his presence. We generally think it's the physical form of the Father that requires this, but it seems to me that it is as likely the resurrected spirit's glory is just as unbearable for our less than perfect spirits to endure.

So it is not the fact that he has a perfected body that is the 'limitation', but the perfection itself.

[Kiviuq]

So it is not the fact that he has a perfected body that is the 'limitation', but the perfection itself.

Interesting thought. (So the Holy Ghost is a God but not yet perfected.)

[Calm]

Interesting thought. (So the Holy Ghost is a God but not yet perfected.)

Perfected in the sense of having received the full glory of God the Father....no, I would say he is not, just as Christ was God prior to his birth and resurrection, yet did not possess the Father's full glory.

[erichard]

Just one thing comes to mind: all the righteous who died before Christ were resurrected at His resurrection, and that would include Adam.

Actually, one other thing: Adam lived an awful long time on earth, with something like 7 generations of descendants peopling the earth before he died (including Enoch and his city). I find it hard to believe that all these people were deprived of the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Valid points.

However, if one accepts that the Holy Ghost is an "office" filled by "distinct" beings then there is no reason to not believe that another personage was the Holy Ghost before Adam died.

Likewise, if we were to travel to all the aproximately 200 billion suns in our galaxy, and we were to visit the worlds that circle these suns, we can trust that on every world where the children of God have temporal bodies like our own, that the office of the Holy Ghost will be there for them in all ages of that earth. Thus the Holy Ghost is INFINITE and ETERNAL as D&C 20:28 says.

As far as the resurrection of Adam, then I would have turn to Adam-God doctrine.

Adam, according to President Young on many occasions, came to this earth with a "resurrected" body. In other words, he had already lived on an earth like this one and gained his exaltation there. Well, that is how many of us sincerely read the words of President Young.

Since President Young was the revelator for the church in His day, and had been a close friend of the Prophet Joseph, then one should consider not immediately rejecting that he taught this.

Thus, Adam was not resurrected after the resurrection of Christ, as He is fulfilling a higher work as the Holy Ghost until He returns to Adam-Ondi-Ahman, and then He will take up His resurrected body again, the Holy Ghost will be taken from the earth, and as the "Ancient of Days" Adam will set up the Millenial Kingdom of God on earth, as the Prophet Daniel saw.

Richard

[nicolasconnault]

Since President Young was the revelator for the church in His day, and had been a close friend of the Prophet Joseph, then one should consider not immediately rejecting that he taught this.

Thus, Adam was not resurrected after the resurrection of Christ, as He is fulfilling a higher work as the Holy Ghost until He returns to Adam-Ondi-Ahman, and then He will take up His resurrected body again, the Holy Ghost will be taken from the earth, and as the "Ancient of Days" Adam will set up the Millenial Kingdom of God on earth, as the Prophet Daniel saw.

Richard

I have considered this before, but I'm quite sure that a resurrected body can never again be separated from its spirit. Scriptures are quite plentiful on this topic. In fact I would go as far as to say that the body and the spirit become one entity so that a separation becomes meaningless.

[mfbukowski]

I have considered this before, but I'm quite sure that a resurrected body can never again be separated from its spirit. Scriptures are quite plentiful on this topic. In fact I would go as far as to say that the body and the spirit become one entity so that a separation becomes meaningless.

I agree.

That's my understanding of what a resurrected body IS.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that we have one mortal mission and then it is on to our reward- or lack thereof.

Another one- Suppose there is some transgression or mistake which happens on one of these "missions" where one is dropping off and picking up one's resurrected body- and suddenly one is no longer qualified to have a celestial body?

As a divine parent, why would I use the same individual who was already glorified to complete multiple missions when I could use that opportunity to teach another child? The goal here is to train as many as possible to learn what I have already learned.

The mission is to "Bring to pass" eternal life- not recycle those already glorified.