LDS Church-Restoration of Primitive Christianity

[ChristKnight]

Merry Christmas everyone!

For many members of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the belief that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a restoration of the primitive Church is of great interest, since those churches believe themselves to be continuations of the primitive Church, through the ages. Catholics and Orthodox will then cite the requisite texts from the writings of the "Early Church Fathers" as evidence of the continuity with ancient Christianity (obviously this isn't as simple as I make it sound, since the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church believe differently on a number of issues, yet both claim to be the "one true Church", and cite the Fathers to support their beliefs).

I've noticed that many Catholics make blanket statements such as "there are NO Mormon beliefs found in early Christianity. It was all invented by Joseph Smith." Therefore, my question is, what do you believe are the strongest evidences for the LDS belief in a restoration of primitive, first-century Christianity, in contrast to Catholic/Orthodox claims to be uninterrupted continuations of primitive Christianity? I've read a little about this, mostly by Barry Bickmore, and am interested in what others believe on this topic, since it is especially important (to me at least) in apologetic discussions with Catholics and Orthodox.

[BCSpace]

I believe one would likely find more and more LDS-like doctrines the farther one goes back in time if the LDS Church is the Restored Church. Bickmore showed this is indeed the case. I've subsequently read the ante Nicene Fathers myself and am more sure than ever this is the case. After reading them, I don't think the Catholics or Protestants have any leg to stand on in this regard. The first Christians certainly weren't trinitarians and that later doctrine is not a logical development of previous doctrines being both in historical and Biblical conflict. Neither did they believe in sola scriptura or sola fide etc.

One should be careful not to use the early Fathers as sources of LDS doctrine as they were in the throes of universal apostasy already, but one can trace this apostasy to worse apostasy as one goes forward in time.

[thesometimesaint]

ChristKnight:

The First Vision, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine And Covenants, and last but not least my own personal testimony.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Well we restored the belief of the Apostasy itself, which you have not kept.

The orthodox churches fondly suppose that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" was a guarantee of the security of the church on this earth are inventing a doctrine diametrically opposed to the belief of the early church. Most of the New Testament was written as an attempt to warn and prepare for an apostasy that MUST happen before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, "the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

You deny John's claim of the victory of anti-Christ, and the restoration of the Gospel by an angel?

Rev 14,

[PaulBoyerFan]

I believe one would likely find more and more LDS-like doctrines the farther one goes back in time if the LDS Church is the Restored Church. Bickmore showed this is indeed the case. I've subsequently read the ante Nicene Fathers myself and am more sure than ever this is the case. After reading them, I don't think the Catholics or Protestants have any leg to stand on in this regard. The first Christians certainly weren't trinitarians and that later doctrine is not a logical development of previous doctrines being both in historical and Biblical conflict. Neither did they believe in sola scriptura or sola fide etc.

One should be careful not to use the early Fathers as sources of LDS doctrine as they were in the throes of universal apostasy already, but one can trace this apostasy to worse apostasy as one goes forward in time.

Of course, the earliest Christian community didn't believe in the trinity. Then again, many Catholic and Protestant scholars believe that Jesus never claimed to be divine and that this belief developed in the first century.

[noel00]

Some scholars do believe Jesus Christ is God. See for example The Trinity in the New Testament, Arthur W. Wainwright, SPCK, 1982, pp 53- 74. He discusses ; Rom. 9.5,Heb. 1.8, John 1:1-2, Tim. 2.13, 2Pet. 1.1. .

[RickChown]

Well we restored the belief of the Apostasy itself, which you have not kept.

The orthodox churches fondly suppose that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" was a guarantee of the security of the church on this earth are inventing a doctrine diametrically opposed to the belief of the early church. Most of the New Testament was written as an attempt to warn and prepare for an apostasy that MUST happen before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, "the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Who do you claim this anti-Christ is/was?

You deny John's claim of the victory of anti-Christ, and the restoration of the Gospel by an angel?

Rev 14,

[TAO]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Who do you claim this anti-Christ is/was?

1 John 4:3 - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The Antichrist, Rick, was already in the world at the time. Thus, that day shall come.

A LOUD voice to every nation kindred and tongue

This hasn't happened yet either

The LDS version of the Book of Mormon has been translated into 83 languages, and selections of the Book of Mormon have been translated into an additional 25 languages. In 2001, the LDS church reported that all or part of the Book of Mormon was available in the native language of 99% of Latter-day Saints and 87% of the world's total population.

Also lds.org.

There is no office of prophet.

CFR.

Right it has not happened yet. It isn't too far off though

CFR.

This title son of perdition is an interesting title because it is really son of Satan.

CFR.

And even as Jesus was God incarnate, in flesh, so the anti-christ will be Satan incarnate.

Erm...Incarnate?.... CFR. John even noted that the spirit of the anti-christ was already upon the world. No, it will be people letting Satan into their hearts... whether it be one person, or many, that the verse is referring to, I do not know. Or whether the verse is referring to Satan himself... as that could be a possibility as well.

This son of perdition will come up with a great solution to the problem in Israel with the Moslems. The temple will be rebuilt.

When Ezekiel was taken by the spirit through time and saw the temple that is to be rebuilt, that has not been built yet, Ezekiel gave him the measurements.

What... why do you think this...? I'm gonna have to CFR again.

A good comentary on this subject is here

http://www.bluelette...3#anchor_2Th230

I might look at it later, I don't have time right now, sorry =P.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[thesometimesaint]

RickChown:

Looks to me like there needs to be apostles, and prophets in His Church.

http://scripturetext.com/ephesians/4-11.htm

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

[RickChown]

1 John 4:3 - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The Antichrist, Rick, was already in the world at the time. Thus, that day shall come.

Also lds.org.

CFR.

CFR.

CFR.

Erm...Incarnate?.... CFR. John even noted that the spirit of the anti-christ was already upon the world. No, it will be people letting Satan into their hearts... whether it be one person, or many, that the verse is referring to, I do not know. Or whether the verse is referring to Satan himself... as that could be a possibility as well.

What... why do you think this...? I'm gonna have to CFR again.

I might look at it later, I don't have time right now, sorry =P.

Best Wishes,

TAO

You cfr everything? Look in the bible. I even told you where some of it was. Some is my opinion from my own study and through the Spirit.

The Spirit of anti christ doesn't mean the son of perdition has come on the scene

When did this SOP sit in the temple claiming to be God and worshiped as such?

Spiritual is different than physical

You posted a pic of the BOM?

Is that your claim? This angel that came to Joseph you are claiming it is this angel in the revelation?

This angel only spoke to Joseph. Hardly a loud voice to all nations and tongues

Your stretch is about to snap

[RickChown]

RickChown:

Looks to me like there needs to be apostles, and prophets in His Church.

http://scripturetext...esians/4-11.htm

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Yes I agree with this scripture.

There are thousands of apostles in the church.

They are not on the same level as the apostles of Christ are , or that some men claim to be now days

God can prophesy through numerous people or even things if He likes.

There is no office of "prophet" to rule over the church. If you can find it in the bible, I'll thank you for that info.

[thesometimesaint]

RickChown:

There are not thousands of Apostles. Apostles are are a specific calling in the New Testament. They are Special Witnesses to Christ, as opposed to disciples which there were many, and we should be too. The lead Apostle is called the Prophet, as he holds the keys to the Priesthood(Think Peter).

[TAO]

You cfr everything?

Yes I do.

Look in the bible.

Already did. Couldn't find it. That's why I'm CFRing.

I even told you where some of it was.

And I either countered it, or you didn't tell me. You are going to have to provide specific quotes.

Some is my opinion from my own study and through the Spirit.

Which parts exactly?

The Spirit of anti christ doesn't mean the son of perdition has come on the scene

CFR.

When did this SOP sit in the temple claiming to be God and worshiped as such?

Isn't this what Satan does all the time.... with wealth, pride, and other things? The verse may not be as it seems.

Spiritual is different than physical

Indeed it is. But the spiritual can have an effect on the physical.

You posted a pic of the BOM?

Is that your claim?

Yep.

This angel that came to Joseph you are claiming it is this angel in the revelation?

Yep.

This angel only spoke to Joseph. Hardly a loud voice to all nations and tongues

I direct you to the Book of Mormon - the voice of the angel.

Your stretch is about to snap

Rich Chrown, I am very sorry, but it doesn't seem to be close to snapping for me.

I am telling you early, that I am, that I don't accept what is "obvious" to others, as "obvious". You'll have to start from the base up, sorry for the hassle =P.

[3DOP]

Merry Christmas everyone!

For many members of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the belief that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a restoration of the primitive Church is of great interest, since those churches believe themselves to be continuations of the primitive Church, through the ages. Catholics and Orthodox will then cite the requisite texts from the writings of the "Early Church Fathers" as evidence of the continuity with ancient Christianity (obviously this isn't as simple as I make it sound, since the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church believe differently on a number of issues, yet both claim to be the "one true Church", and cite the Fathers to support their beliefs).

I've noticed that many Catholics make blanket statements such as "there are NO Mormon beliefs found in early Christianity. It was all invented by Joseph Smith." Therefore, my question is, what do you believe are the strongest evidences for the LDS belief in a restoration of primitive, first-century Christianity, in contrast to Catholic/Orthodox claims to be uninterrupted continuations of primitive Christianity? I've read a little about this, mostly by Barry Bickmore, and am interested in what others believe on this topic, since it is especially important (to me at least) in apologetic discussions with Catholics and Orthodox.

Hi Christ Knight. Merry Christmas.

1) Baptism for the Dead as a positive act familiar to and agreeable with the Corinthian Church as irrefutable evidence of the resurrection of the saints.

2) Christological doctrine of the ante-Nicene Fathers compatible to LDS views and in some cases incompatible with the Council of Nicea.

3) Mt. 16:18: While Catholics quote that passage to prove the perpetuity of the Church, Latter-day Saints understand it as analogous to the Resurrection of Christ, who truly died, and just as the grave did not contain Christ when He returned from the dead alive, so the "gates of hell" do not prevail over the Church, which having been dead, is restored and brought vividly back to life.

3DOP

[RickChown]

RickChown:

There are not thousands of Apostles. Apostles are are a specific calling in the New Testament. They are Special Witnesses to Christ, as opposed to disciples which there were many, and we should be too. The lead Apostle is called the Prophet, as he holds the keys to the Priesthood(Think Peter).

There sure are

Apostle is one who is sent out

Those twelve apostles to Christ were special witnesses. But they have long ago died, and are no more. To claim today to be a special witness is just a claim.

CFR on the "lead apostle" being in an office of prophet

Unless of course you mean Christ himself.

[bluebell]

But they have long ago died, and are no more. To claim today to be a special witness is just a claim.

To claim that there aren't apostles on the earth anymore is just a claim.

[Obiwan]

LDS Church-Restoration of Primitive Christianity

This site has lot's of good info....

http://web.archive.org/web/20030803232421/www.restorationhistory.com/&ps.html

[DonBradley]

One can come up with a good number of specifics on this, but I think the basics are the most important.

1) Early Christianity had prophets, apostles, revelation, and an open canon. Traditional Christianity has largely abandoned these, but Mormonism has them all.

2) Early Christianity did not attempt to usurp the place of the house of Israel in God's plan but accepted Israel's crucial, chosen status, and situated itself alongside Israel. The church was not "the new Israel." Israel was still Israel. Latter-day Saints, unlike traditional Christians, have never sought to supplant Israel or claim its promises solely or principally for the church. Rather, the church lays claim to many of these promises only by partaking of Israel's blessings, either through lineage or adoption.

3) Early Christianity had a continuity with the faith of the Hebrew Bible, and did not oppose itself to that faith by drawing a radical distinction between "Old Testament" and "New Testament." Mormonism likewise straddles that imagined divide, blending or integrating what traditional Christians falsely view as two entirely separate spiritual regimes.

4) Early Christianity was a religion of faith and righteousness, and not one that emphasized one to the detriment of the other. In the teachings of Jesus, doing was essential to salvation. Mormonism follows the early Christian pattern. (This point probably weighs more heavily in Mormonism's favor relative to Evangelical Christianity than relative to Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, but bears mentioning.)

Don

[thesometimesaint]

RickChown:

Jesus seems to want Apostles, and Prophets to continue till we ALL come to a unity of the faith. With over 40,000 differing Christian religions in the US alone we seem to be a long way till that unity comes.

Ephesians 4:11-14

11And he agave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;